tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post1917277265823352700..comments2024-03-18T22:09:37.509+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: AGE RAGE and ALE: VLDL degradationPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-15475568868809669202008-08-22T15:39:00.000+00:002008-08-22T15:39:00.000+00:00My current thinking is that 1g/d EPA+DHA in 4-5g f...<I>My current thinking is that 1g/d EPA+DHA in 4-5g fish oil won't kill me. Not acutely anyway. I'll let you know if facts convince me I'm wrong. --Peter</I><BR/><BR/>Of course at that point, you'll be dead, which will make it somewhat more difficult to post...<BR/><BR/>I guess I see the benefits for ADD/ADHD/Depression along with reduction of joint inflammation (reported by many besides me) as indicating that the EPA/DHA route can't be all that dangerous. Or if it is, at least we'll be more focused, happy, and flexible as we degrade.Charles R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09139496312163674161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-90405299349942561292008-08-22T05:30:00.000+00:002008-08-22T05:30:00.000+00:00Charles,I will eventually get on to omega 3 fats ...Charles,<BR/><BR/>I will eventually get on to omega 3 fats and signalling molecules (and neuro function probably, eventually). I'm back on fish oils and looking to stay there. I've said before, I don't remotely regard omega 3s and 6s in the same light. But things are going to get a little worse for omega 3s before they get better re hepatic function and short term blood glucose control.<BR/><BR/>I'm fascinated by how stuff fits together. Just saying all PUFA are bad is essentially wrong, as far as I'm concerned. No molecule is "good" or "bad".<BR/><BR/>Good and bad are semantic labels we apply to processes. I'm interested in those processes rather than the labels per se... I also suspect that what PUFA do in liver (next AGE related post) may be labelled differently in differing circumstances. Or may be labelled irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>The fact that Bruce posts interminably means it becomes very tedious to refute every "you should read Ray Peat post" comment. Even just to say I don't agree gets tedious. If you follow links you have to follow the refs in those links and think about what they mean.<BR/><BR/>Again, I don't moderate. Bruce is welcome to Peat. <BR/><BR/>Peter<BR/><BR/>Glad your depression improved. No fun.<BR/><BR/>Oh, never answered the question. My current thinking is that 1g/d EPA+DHA in 4-5g fish oil won't kill me. Not acutely anyway. I'll let you know if facts convince me I'm wrong (always possible).Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-64292568349845034132008-08-22T04:28:00.000+00:002008-08-22T04:28:00.000+00:00The problematic issue for me with this information...The problematic issue for me with this information about fish oil is that I have been using it as treatment for ADD and depression. A decade or so ago, I was able to get off of the drugs I was taking to manage it by taking high-DHA fish oil caps. And I have continued to take fish oil for the same reason.<BR/><BR/>So now you've got me trying to come up with some other way to support better brain function. This isn't an academic issue with me, as I was only marginally functional prior to treating myself, and am quite happily functional now, at least brain chemistry-wise.<BR/><BR/>So have you got any suggestions? How much of a long-term problem is fish oil?Charles R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09139496312163674161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36913045762814883872008-08-21T01:48:00.000+00:002008-08-21T01:48:00.000+00:00Peter:First; between you and Stephan at Whole Heal...Peter:<BR/><BR/>First; between you and Stephan at Whole Health Source... I just can't believe the nitty-gritty values you guys deliver. Hat's off.<BR/><BR/>If there's ever anything I can do for you...<BR/><BR/>I don't claim to understand everything in your post, but I have only recently been taking quite a lot of fish oil supplementation, i.e., 4g per day of salmon oil, 2g of cod liver oil, and 3 caps of Green Pastures "Butter Oil," the Weston Price formulation of K2 (MK-4).<BR/><BR/>My skin, and particularly, my teeth, are amazing. I reversed gum disease (2 surgeries, 6 years ago) just getting off grains. But now (since the butter oil), I don't even feel I need to brush my teeth. I do, every few days just for that clean and fresh feeling, but my teeth are otherwise always smooth and there's no plaque buildup.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, here's my very recent lipid profile, HDL 106 with insane ratios.<BR/><BR/>http://www.honestylog.com/root/2008/07/lipid-pannel.html<BR/><BR/>This was prior to adding all the fish oils via supplementation. In light of your post and some of the comments, I'm concerned about heading in the wrong direction.<BR/><BR/>Also, I had been on thyroid meds for years and stopped them first of this year (high TSH). My weight loss subsequently accelerated (I do LC, HIT twice per week, 30 minutes each, and IF, twice per week, 24-36 hours timed to conclude with the workout). I've lost about 50 pounds of fat and gained 20 pounds of lean (huge strength increases), and yet my TSH is 16, which is way high...???<BR/><BR/>Any ideas?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-55125427465019705432008-08-20T23:32:00.000+00:002008-08-20T23:32:00.000+00:00http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1995786http://w...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1995786<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11451717<BR/><BR/>These two studies are just looking at "markers" rather than long-term mortality and/or morbidity. MDA is only a marker of lpid peroxidation, not an exact measure of how much is occurring. It's confounded by many other factors, like how much metals and anti-oxidants you eat. We need more studies of total mortality and morbidity. The studies should go on until the subjects die or develop a chronic disease. Instead, we have a gross excess of these dumb studies, looking at markers over a few weeks or months. Such studies demonstrate nothing of substance, esp when they use processed or fractionated foods like corn starch, sucrose, glucose, fructose, casein, and corn oil. The only valid studies use real food or total mortality/morbidity, or both.<BR/><BR/>Most studies are not even worthy of being called science. They are more a type of religion. We have the low fat and low carb religions. Neither is 100% honest or true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-1838182945946771002008-08-20T22:48:00.000+00:002008-08-20T22:48:00.000+00:00"Of course the fasting triglycerides were MUCH low..."Of course the fasting triglycerides were MUCH lower in the omega 3 group..." (Peter)<BR/><BR/>Omega-3 fats damage mitochondria in your liver, causing reduced ability to make triglycerides. Treating the number is stupid and promoting fish oil to lower triglycerides is total nonsense. Omega-3 and omega-6 PUFAs also damage pancreatic beta cells - leading to diabetes. Better to just "avoid all PUFAs equally", than add one to compensate for an excess of the other. The best seafood IMO are shellfish and lean varieties - cod, pollock, and whiting, - pref ocean caught, not fresh-water or farmed. These article reveal the danger of omega-3 and omega-6 PUFAs.<BR/><BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2005-11.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2005-12.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2006-01.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2006-02.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2006-03.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2006-04.html<BR/>http://www.nutri-spec.net/nl/2006-05.html<BR/><BR/>I particularly like this quote from the 2006-02 Nutri-Spec newsletter:<BR/><BR/>"The most absurd myth of all regarding the purported benefits of omega 3 fatty acids concerns their relationship to cardiovascular disease. Fish oil supplementation is alleged to benefit CVD primarily because it will yield a small, but statistically significant decrease in triglycerides. The unbiased research on omega 3 fatty acids, however, shows that triglycerides are decreased solely due to fish oil's toxic effects on the liver. EPA and DHA are shown to lower blood lipids only as they are incorporated into tissues and suppress mitochondrial respiration."<BR/><BR/>The Inuits were healthy in spite of high omega-3 diets, not because of them. They aged very rapidly. Note Stefansson's observation that Inuit women were often grandmothers by 22 years old, and looked as old at 60 as Americans at 80. They also lived in a pristine area. Combine omega-3 fats with pollution and high-stress levels and see what happens. Here's another reason not to eat omega-3s. Cats fed too much omega-3 develop a condition called yellow fat disease or steatitis (fat inflammation), if you feed them too much fish. Surely Peter has heard of this disease and perhaps even seen its effects. They are definitely not pleasant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-26733494035918770102008-08-20T21:08:00.000+00:002008-08-20T21:08:00.000+00:00Ooops.Obviously I meant "I've never been that conc...Ooops.<BR/><BR/>Obviously I meant "I've never been that concerned about <I>Cholesterol</I>..."<BR/><BR/>I've been doing low-carb since the 70s.Charles R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09139496312163674161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-80419066762216979092008-08-20T21:03:00.000+00:002008-08-20T21:03:00.000+00:00It's the fat that's good, not the lipids!--PeterAh...<I>It's the fat that's good, not the lipids!</I>--Peter<BR/><BR/>Ah! Right! Got it finally...<BR/><BR/>I had never been even mildly concerned about CHO. But then my M.D. kind of freaked when he saw my LDL at 239. He was taken aback when I told him I wouldn't take statins ever, never, no how. I don't think he ever heard that from anyone before (I'm in a small town on an island in the Pacific Northwest, USA). I think he is not used to informed patients, but then again, very few docs are.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, as always, Peter. I love this blog, and I quote it to people constantly.Charles R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09139496312163674161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-75395080579974851962008-08-20T05:07:00.000+00:002008-08-20T05:07:00.000+00:00This is Krauss:"We have found that increased intak...This is Krauss:<BR/><BR/>"We have found that increased intake of saturated fatty acids is associated with higher levels of larger, more buoyant LDL particles (11)"<BR/><BR/>Ref 11 is <A HREF="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9583838" REL="nofollow">here</A> and finds that myristic acid (loads in coconut oil) does this best.<BR/><BR/>You need to slog through Figure one of his commentary, I'll put a post up on it soon.<BR/><BR/>Re lipid sizes etc; large fluff LDLs are a marker you are eating saturated fat. It's the fat that's good, not the lipids!<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-4032019179539980442008-08-20T01:29:00.000+00:002008-08-20T01:29:00.000+00:00mtflight:I had a similar experience with LC, excep...mtflight:<BR/><BR/>I had a similar experience with LC, except that my triglycerides stayed low. I think it was something like HDL 55, TG 74, which is still pretty good. <BR/><BR/>But like you, my LDL shot up to around 230. I was (and still am) eating a lot of coconut oil and coconut milk, very low carbs.<BR/><BR/>The doc thought I should immediately be on steroids...just kidding...on statins. But I pointed out to him the HDL/TG ratio was fabulous, and as far as I was concerned, that was all that mattered. I got him to order the LDL test, and it showed that pretty much all of the LDL was the light and fluffy kind.<BR/><BR/>I would never have gone on statins anyway, but it was nice to see that the LDL was not a big deal. At least as far as I know, maybe Peter doesn't subscribe to the light & fluffy paradigm. Based on some of his recent posts, it's more complex than light and fluffy vs. small and dense.<BR/><BR/>Also, my FBG was 105 or something, and I was concerned, but his latest posts seem to point out the reasons for that, and indicate it's not an issue, just a result of the LC.Charles R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09139496312163674161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-48272999803375630992008-08-19T21:00:00.000+00:002008-08-19T21:00:00.000+00:00Wow. Once upon a time, a year ago, I was trying to...Wow. <BR/><BR/>Once upon a time, a year ago, I was trying to impress my [then] doctor by lowering my cholesterol through hardcore LC (downregulating HMG-CoA reductase through lowered insulin and increased glucagon). I thought I'd get the most improvement if I added "those lacking omega-3s" so I took fish oil like a mad man. I also gave up cooking oils, and was using coconut oil. <BR/><BR/>I made one big mistake (among the other mistakes), which was to take a protein smoothie made with orange flavored psyllum husk and vanilla whey protein (both sugar-free). I added heavy cream and ice. I drank this shake with my thyroid pills (causing them to not absorb).<BR/><BR/>My next blood lipid panel (2 months later) was not what I was expecting...<BR/><BR/>LDL jumped from 106 to 239<BR/>HDL from 37 to 44 (ok that was good)<BR/>Triglycerides from 99 to 145 (this was odd, following LC, but perhaps they were some of the MCT from the coconut oil?). <BR/>Total Cholesterol went from 163 to 312. <BR/>TSH from 0.1 to 24.3 (fiber binding the T3/T4)<BR/><BR/>I was very disappointed. This may sound unrelated but I was one of those people taking large quantities of fish oil to reduce those triglycerides up until February when they came back down under 100 without the need for fish oil.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate the hard work and the knowledge you share, free of charge. Your blog contents would make for one of those great bedside books. Material for thought about "how things work." The level of detail and subject matter is very entertaining and certainly thought provoking. I like your holistic approach. <BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>Alexmtflighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15904999557050546982noreply@blogger.com