tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post4631462657778628572..comments2024-03-27T22:57:00.742+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Axen and Axen (1)Peterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-84103653838924870642012-10-22T05:22:17.122+00:002012-10-22T05:22:17.122+00:00Dear Mr Piper Rat,
Ah, you could eat less and mov...Dear Mr Piper Rat,<br /><br />Ah, you could eat less and move more. This ALWAYS works. OK, I'm lying. Or you could reduce the Reward value of your food. I think combining a boring gas/liquid diet composed of rarefied room air and one of the oxides of hydrogen in liquid form should lower your body adipostat setting to zero. In a couple of months you'll be dead thin. Or dead and thin.<br /><br />Failing that we're taking about some beef mince fried in lots of butter. Not much mince, lots of butter. Both Ratty and Rattigan in my house live on this and seem to stay very slim. The naughty pair tend to eat round the butter and prefer the meat and there is always plenty of butter in their bowls when it's top up time, so they're probably not in ketosis. They like their meat. Especially when cooked as bolognaise sauce or shepherds pie w/o the potato.<br /><br />If I went to a rat specialist think HbA1c would be the test I asked for. Even though F3666 (a rather PUFA ladened ketogenic diet) will not slim down ob/ob mice, it goes a long way to normalising their metabolism. Being slim is not everything, being normoglycaemic probably is. Particularly for your knees.<br /><br />On behalf of Ratty and Rattigan<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37502475461396386392012-10-21T06:46:32.559+00:002012-10-21T06:46:32.559+00:00Hi
My name is Piper. I am a neutered male rat. I a...Hi<br />My name is Piper. I am a neutered male rat. I am nearly 2 years old.(Starting to move into old age). Recently, I have gone from 550gm to 750gms. I am huge. I even won <br />"Heaviest Buck" at the Rat Club Show. This is not the kind of award I'm proud of. Apart from my weight, I am very healthy (though I am starting to have climbing problems with all that bulk). <br />I do not eat a high fat diet at all, in fact I eat a very healthy diet - grains, fresh vegetables, and small amounts of protein and bones and fruit. I don't even get nuts or seeds anymore--I'm not allowed. <br />I eat about 2 teaspoons of raw rolled oats in the morning, and about the same of a cooked grain in the evening. I am then given as much green vegetables as I want - but there's only such much of that one can eat. By contrast,my very skinny niece eats more than a table spoon of food twice a day, and also gets treats! (Cheerios, a nut or two or a yogurt drop). I am not allowed these anymore. Yet I still keep getting bigger and bigger. My mum has tested my urine for sugar, and I pass that test, so I do not have diabetes. Even on my very restricted diet, I am finding it very hard to lose weight, and sometimes, now I feel a bit lethargic on it. My human mother tries to get me involved in games, but ever since my brother died a year ago, I am not so interested in playing anymore.(though she keeps trying to make me move). I'd rather lie on her and have my ears scratched. Although I am happy enough to be moved to another spot once I've had my meal, if I can possibly get away with it, if my human mother doesn't see me, then I will race over and polish off whatever I can of everyone else's food. I was always a big boy; thick set, muscley, and a beautiful specimen, but I did get a little chubby, but now I've blown out completely. It' been suggested that I may be the victim of 'ginger gene'since I have a ginger-orange face (I am very pretty), and one pink eye (albinism) and one ruby eye (very dark red ). <br />Do you have any advice for me? My vet, who is a rat specialist, doesn't think there's much that can be done for me, and that even if a blood test was done, it would be difficult to find someone who would be willing to interpret the values. I guess us ratties aren't as valuable as cats or dogs. But my human mum is willing to pay for tests if it means a diagnosis and perhaps treatment.<br />My weight is affecting my joints, and this starvation diet is making me a bit unhappy (though I have been on it for many months).<br /><br />Given all you've written and studied about fats/carbs and weight gain in rats, and I don't eat a high fat (not even mod. fat) diet, do you have any suggestions to help me?<br />Yours,<br />Mr Piper RatMettaphoricahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06692731895320167891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37799494530887457472011-02-20T18:44:51.389+00:002011-02-20T18:44:51.389+00:00This comment is just about GTTs: What do you make ...This comment is just about GTTs: What do you make of a GTT normal in all parameters except for the sharpness of the "curve" - try from baseline immediately to expected peak and then straight down to baseline within the half-hour (and staying around there the ensuing hours).<br /><br />This happened to me quite awhile back when tested while low-carbing. (Never had another GTT). I did feel completely wiped out during that test, as you might imagine. Never saw any explanation for this kind of curve except in a book about test results that vaguely alluded a steep chart to pituitary disorders.<br /><br />I'm not diabetic; have a lot of difficulty losing weight on any calorie intake (or carb for that matter but I've low-carbed and kept calories modest most of my life). Mildly hypothyroid treated with Armour (T3/T4).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-13109388435094742072010-10-05T20:40:56.652+00:002010-10-05T20:40:56.652+00:00There is a very simple, non-diabolical reason that...There is a very simple, non-diabolical reason that the trans fat content was not mentioned in the abstract--there is a strict word limit on the abstract (you can read the whole paper for all the information) and the point of the paper was not a comparison of diets with vs. without trans fatty acids. In addition, there is plenty of evidence, from our work and that of other people, that a high-fat diet that is low in trans fatty acids can also produce metabolic syndrome.<br />Kathleen AxenUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08216717307105150741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66929763070174671692010-09-01T15:59:27.053+00:002010-09-01T15:59:27.053+00:00I don't think they do. I guess Axen and Axen b...I don't think they do. I guess Axen and Axen bought up all the remaining stocks before Crisco was de-transed. That is before the trans fats were put back in! Have a google on Crisco in wiki here<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisco<br /><br />A strange product. Of course it might not have been Crisco, but I like the idea! More blood on the hands of CSPI!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-62523140710737317872010-09-01T14:51:53.036+00:002010-09-01T14:51:53.036+00:00Wow I didn't even realise products with 17% tr...Wow I didn't even realise products with 17% trans fats still existed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-32713626103259068352010-08-30T16:45:46.258+00:002010-08-30T16:45:46.258+00:00I wish we had a vet as experienced and knowledgeab...I wish we had a vet as experienced and knowledgeable as you. And I agree, it's factory (ie: Proctor and Gamble, etc.) produced fat that is bad for you, not natural fat.<br /><br />- David<br /><br /><a href="http://www.aloe-vera.org" rel="nofollow">Aloe Vera 101</a><br /><a href="http://www.holistic.us.com" rel="nofollow">Holistic Health Info.</a>"Guppy" Honakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00418432570902397757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-84326107208827659132010-08-26T06:00:36.309+00:002010-08-26T06:00:36.309+00:00First link above looks cut off, so here's what...First link above looks cut off, so here's what I should have done the first time around-<br /><br />http://tiny.cc/p86uyOwenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266196946261566645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-64994401595225666592010-08-26T05:54:56.421+00:002010-08-26T05:54:56.421+00:00Martin,
I've wondered this myself. Is fully-h...Martin,<br /><br />I've wondered this myself. Is fully-hydrogenated corn oil as bad as partially-hydrogenated corn oil or regular corn oil for that matter? Fully-hydrogenating high omega-6 vegetable oil seems like it would be the best way to counteract all the toxic oxidative qualities normally associated with PUFA, by removing all the double bonds. In this case extreme processing might make an unhealthy substance a little less unhealthy.<br /><br />Then there is the paradox that naturally occuring trans-fat like CLA is linked to positive outcomes, whereas trans-fat produced during partial hydrogenation is totally demonized. <br /><br />It makes a lot of sense to me (and would resolve the paradox!) if it turns out that the real problem with the trans-fat in margarine is not it's trans-configuration, but the damage that took place during the high pressure, high temp, metal catalyst reaction. I imagine it's not so different from leaving regular corn oil in a deep fryer for several days, where no trans-fat is needed for it to be horrible.<br /><br />And at the same time CLA might show so well because it occurs in foods (red meat and diary) that have a lot of other good qualities (palmitic acid, A, K2, magnesium, etc.) and is probably taking credit for more than it deserves. Also those things are always kept refrigerated and have a short shelf life even still, so it's probably some of the least damaged PUFA in any food you are liable to find. Even pasteurized dairy is processed gentle enough to not damage the PUFA. The point where the processing probably goes too far is something like dry powdered milk, which is known for containing oxidized cholesterol. <br /><br />Anyway, if CLA was really a big deal then it should perform well on its own, but the research is disappointing-<br /><br />https://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21676#P3<br /><br />And this one below found that when mice were fed 10% safflower oil by total energy and then had 1% CLA added they developed lipodystrophy (which is relevant to the earlier discussion in this comment thread)-<br /><br />http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/49/9/1534.full.pdfOwenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266196946261566645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-34539689506943556852010-08-25T23:20:19.362+00:002010-08-25T23:20:19.362+00:00Don't blame the processing when it's the s...Don't blame the processing when it's the substance itself that is poisonous. We don't hydrogenate animal fat. We render animal fat. It's still "processing" but the end product conserves its healthful properties.<br /><br />Which brings another point, if even with processing a substance conserves its healthful property, isn't it reasonable to assume that an unhealthful substance also conserves its unhealthful property?<br /><br />We hydrogenate vegetable oil. Maybe, just maybe it's the vegetable oil that's killing us.<br /><br />Processed arsenic. It's still arsenic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-19511732295763216542010-08-25T11:37:33.559+00:002010-08-25T11:37:33.559+00:00Hi Stephan,
It's tempting to just give up on ...Hi Stephan,<br /><br />It's tempting to just give up on looking at rat studies from your comments. It certainly sounds as if you can prove what you want. I think I'll still put up the Axen and Axen 2 post as it's an interesting example of the development of a model from failure to success in terms of getting the results needed for funding success. Never mind the significance of the results in terms of what humans might do on Crisco.<br /><br />I think I'd still be loathe to eat Crisco though...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-61041633719613630652010-08-25T01:25:45.205+00:002010-08-25T01:25:45.205+00:00Peter,
if you give Ratty nuts with hard shells he ...Peter,<br />if you give Ratty nuts with hard shells he will be kept amused for hours as he chews his way into these treats. He will also keep his teeth in top condition.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-49842533180779564152010-08-24T18:58:08.729+00:002010-08-24T18:58:08.729+00:00Hi Leena,
Yes, you can make rats fat and sick usi...Hi Leena,<br /><br />Yes, you can make rats fat and sick using high-fat diets without genetic manipulations, fructose or trans fat. For example:<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12876304<br /><br />Then there are a bunch of studies that fed rats sucrose but in modest quantity, such as:<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8969289<br /><br />Sucrose does seem to exacerbate the obesity and insulin resistance, although it has barely been studied in a systematic way.<br /><br />To make a rat fat and sick, you feed it refined food. They're generally more resistant to the adverse effects of refined food on a high-starch background diet. But there are many variables, including how the food is prepared. Large amounts of isolated casein is also not good for rats; it will contribute to obesity and insulin resistance.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-49082520615316433622010-08-24T16:18:34.939+00:002010-08-24T16:18:34.939+00:00Great stuff. Don't eat a stick of margarine f...Great stuff. Don't eat a stick of margarine for breakfast!williebrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14181695034119925135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-40187437381719635202010-08-24T07:06:37.902+00:002010-08-24T07:06:37.902+00:00Catkins, Ratkins ?
Took a moment for the penny to...Catkins, Ratkins ?<br /><br />Took a moment for the penny to drop, then I had an early morning grin of appreciation.LeonRoverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219165631035107225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-28119201833735726792010-08-24T05:17:06.179+00:002010-08-24T05:17:06.179+00:00Hi Stephan, we were trying to work out his age exa...Hi Stephan, we were trying to work out his age exactly but we can't quite remember when we got him, April we think, possibly March, young enough to be still dwarfed by his testicles. He's now caught up with them! I have used the Ratkins diet clinically on obese pet rats with some success, bit like the Catkins diet for obese diabetic cats. Never had a name for LC diets in dogs though...<br /><br />Ratty's diet is moderately AGE loaded too, especially the slow fried belly pork and the mince dishes where the meat is browned with the onions as part of the way we cook. We just dollop him out some of ours.<br /><br />The strange thing is that there does appear to be some self consistent logic to the rat studies.<br /><br />The mouse study by Sylvia Ortman, with self selection of macronutrients, gave the same weight gain in LC mice as mice fed CIAB. Offered carbs were sucrose/cornstarch (they left it alone), protein was casein but the fat was lard/coconut 50:50. They were slightly more insulin sensitive than CIAB fed mice (NS but n=4 I think) on response to injected insulin. No details on diet preparation. I'll email you the pdf. Oh, the free choice LC mice ate far more calories than the CIAB mice, for the same weight gain... But I think they got Food, or something close!<br /><br />Obviously Ortman will never get anywhere with results like those.<br /><br />blogblog. Have macadamias, will offer, he loves cashews.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-90580506707193847722010-08-24T05:11:17.059+00:002010-08-24T05:11:17.059+00:00Stephan, have any of the studies that you mention ...Stephan, have any of the studies that you mention (high fat inducing obecity in rats) had<br />- genetically non-manipulated rats<br />- diet low in fructose AND<br />- diet low in transfats?<br /><br />All the studies successfull in mice obecity I've seen so far have had one or more of those ingredients included.<br /><br />On the other hand, there is that Nature article with wild mice eating 80% coconut and with very Ratty-like outcome.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-53770300344195133602010-08-24T01:38:07.887+00:002010-08-24T01:38:07.887+00:00The native rats also love macadamia nuts. Macadami...The native rats also love macadamia nuts. Macadamia nuts are native to to the region I live.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-15308685310973225752010-08-24T01:35:07.737+00:002010-08-24T01:35:07.737+00:00I'm not surprised that Ratty ignores grapes. I...I'm not surprised that Ratty ignores grapes. I have wild possums in my neighborhood - they are ravenous frugivores - but they show no interest at all in grapes. However possums get into a frenzy over over-ripe bananas. I also have native Australian bush rats in the garden that also love bananas.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-89860430360128700412010-08-23T23:59:33.523+00:002010-08-23T23:59:33.523+00:00PPS- isolated casein is usually the protein source...PPS- isolated casein is usually the protein source, and it seems to make them fatter and sicker than other protein sources like beef, soy, rice protein and fish.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-19255365135093017012010-08-23T23:57:43.686+00:002010-08-23T23:57:43.686+00:00By the way, how old is your rat?By the way, how old is your rat?Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-32979557126602778112010-08-23T23:57:19.400+00:002010-08-23T23:57:19.400+00:00Hi Peter,
The thing that interests me the most is...Hi Peter,<br /><br />The thing that interests me the most is the fact that your rat isn't fat. I can't say I'm surprised, but I'm not aware of a single study where they fed a rat decent quality high-fat food. <br /><br />That being said, I doubt it was the trans fat that made the rats fat in the study you discussed. I've been surfing the rat diet-induced obesity lit for a while now, and you can make them fat using almost any fat (except fish oil, which has its own problems at high doses). That includes lard, tallow, butterfat, and seed oils. Lard seems to be more effective than tallow and butterfat. Most of the common research diet induced obesity diets now are based on lard. All of the fats they use are industrially processed, and the diets are generally irradiated or high-heat cooked, which is a recipe for AGE formation, especially if there's sugar in it such as fructose, maltoxedtrin etc. In addition, the diets are made exclusively of refined ingredients for the sake of reproducibility.<br /><br />The finding that high-fat diets induce obesity regardless of calorie restriction (to a point) has been repeated with several types of fat and is not dependent on hydrogenation. Again, this is in the context of a refined poor quality diet.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-20720357115333238102010-08-23T20:08:20.799+00:002010-08-23T20:08:20.799+00:00Peter... fantastic post!!
Thanks for digging into...Peter... fantastic post!!<br /><br />Thanks for digging into this study... the lies and deception need the "light of day". <br /><br />SteveSteve Cooksey, Diabetes Warriorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06841105630989160799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37203527458134490402010-08-23T12:13:35.141+00:002010-08-23T12:13:35.141+00:00Hi renes, so trans fat does the job of activating ...Hi renes, so trans fat does the job of activating NFkappaB that I usually look to endotoxin from the gut via gluten to perform.<br /><br />Believable.<br /><br />Cathy,<br /><br />I can see no non-pharmaceutical approach other than strict paleo... The coeliac tests mean nothing as you realise. DH can take a year to resolve on traditional (modern junk) gluten free diets.<br /><br />I'd certainly view metformin and resistance training as sticking plasters. Gaining muscle is preferable to hyperglycaemia. You can always quit the exercise if you get some fat cells back!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66814623835624947952010-08-23T11:16:15.258+00:002010-08-23T11:16:15.258+00:00When you add fructose to trans fats, you get an ev...When you add fructose to trans fats, you get an even more destructive diet:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100622112548.htm" rel="nofollow">High Levels of Fructose, Trans Fats Lead to Significant Liver Disease, Says Study</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com