tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post5410334741490000199..comments2024-03-27T22:57:00.742+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Dr Ravnskov on statins for primary prevention of CVDPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-90209886125777526602014-02-14T05:54:28.018+00:002014-02-14T05:54:28.018+00:00http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/5/983....http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/5/983.long<br /><br />Dietary choline restriction causes complex I dysfunction and increased H2O2 generation in liver mitochondria<br /><br />Now bear in mind that this is happening in a milieu where both burning and export of FFAs has been decreased - so there is no benefit from IR. The liver may be hungry for sugars and this leads to sweet tooth and storage in adipocytes which are not so IR.<br />It may also promote hepatic gluconeogenesis.<br /><br />Which fits in with what Paul Jaminet is saying here. <br />http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-a-zero-carb-diet-ii-micronutrient-deficiencies/<br /><br />And maybe when the PHD claims DM2 results that compete with VLC, it's because the PHD is very high in choline, while some VLC regimes are choline deficient.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-58871305866342896152014-02-14T04:40:38.456+00:002014-02-14T04:40:38.456+00:00This is nice: the most common probable cause of th...This is nice: the most common probable cause of the acquired Complex 1 inhibition postulated here.<br /><br />Choline deficiency alters the composition of mitochondrial membranes; cardiolipin in these membranes is oxidized, and membrane concentrations of phosphatidylethanolamine and phosphatidylcholine are decreased [43, 44]. These membrane changes result in mitochondrial decreased membrane potential [14, 45] and in reduced activity of complex I of the respiratory chain [44, 46].<br /><br />Choline is found in a variety of foods, but it is particularly abundant in egg yolks and animal sources of protein (see www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/Choline/Choln02.pdf). Many of these high-choline foods are high in fats or cholesterol (e.g. eggs) and are being avoided by many people who then do not achieve the recommended dietary Adequate Intake for choline [22, 23]. For example, several recent epidemiologic studies reported that 25% of Americans ate diets very low in choline (<203 mg/d in the Framingham Heart Study [24], <217 mg/d in the Atherosclerosis Risk In Communities study [25, 26] and <293 mg/d in the Nurse’s Health Study [27]; the Adequate Intake is 450–550 mg/day [22]).<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601486/<br /><br />Jane, you were right about complex 1 and methylation.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-10488754670432209622014-02-13T15:18:52.338+00:002014-02-13T15:18:52.338+00:00Peter, since statistics is so often the subject of...Peter, since statistics is so often the subject of your posts, that these findings can often be quibbled over, I think this is worth a read. It seems to tie back to your objections over the years to data that appear to have been massaged. A bit off the specific topic here, but worth a read. Brad<br /> http://www.nature.com/news/scientific-method-statistical-errors-1.14700Brad Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10275394962283072954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-39366436707042023342014-02-12T22:44:41.261+00:002014-02-12T22:44:41.261+00:00At the start of the comments Charles asked "A...At the start of the comments Charles asked "Are there any studies which show that vegetarians/vegans have a higher incidence of cancer than the general population?" with regard to low LDL-C.<br /><br />One way to answer that is that there are studies to show that replacing more-saturated animal fats with less-saturated vegetable oils a) lowers LDL-C and b) increases the rate of cancer.<br />For example, the Israeli Paradox papers, various animal experiments, and even some Heart-Healthy Diet RCTs.<br />Now that's not about vegetarians vs meat eaters, but it is about closely equivalent animal and vegetable foods, and the vege equivalent doesn't come off best.<br />1/3 of young women on raw food vegan diets stop menstruating. That's a result that I find a little more meaningful than small percentage differences in the incidence of more-or-less inevitable illnesses of ageing.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36889888250932406522014-02-12T15:24:11.988+00:002014-02-12T15:24:11.988+00:00Stipetic, 'nowadays it's generally accepte...Stipetic, 'nowadays it's generally accepted that vegetarians have large brains too' was a joke. My apologies again. Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-57082872298735921942014-02-12T15:07:36.886+00:002014-02-12T15:07:36.886+00:00@Stipetic
Sorry, didn't see your latesst comme...@Stipetic<br />Sorry, didn't see your latesst comment before I wrote mine. Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-3262704400398842742014-02-12T15:05:03.018+00:002014-02-12T15:05:03.018+00:00@Stipetic
I've been looking at the paper again...@Stipetic<br />I've been looking at the paper again, and I think you are right to question the statement 'the main source of energy in the diet of the Kebara inhabitants was the legumes'. This implies that over half their food was legumes, which it can't have been. I think they must have meant, legumes were the principal energy-rich plant food in the diet.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-82220641500185285542014-02-12T11:46:21.400+00:002014-02-12T11:46:21.400+00:00@ Jane
The two are linked. Because the evidence o...@ Jane<br /><br />The two are linked. Because the evidence on acorns was scant, they shifted their guess to legumes. It doesn't mean legumes are the main soure of food, it just means--the word THEY use is "assume"--that legumes are a main source based on the scant evidene of acorns, which makes their assumption carry the same amount of scantness as the acorms.<br /><br />I don't need to re-read the paper to reassess whether you deliberatedly attempted to misrepresent the findings of the study--I posted the full quote. I have the full and know, as well as the authors do, that this is all conjecture. And that legumes were, on top of being toxic, only available for 4 months during the year. There's actually no evidence from the paper that these were actually ingested. I'm sure some were (qualitative versus quantitative) but this paper does not address this.<br /><br />"Nowadays it's generally accepted that vegetarians have large brains too."<br /><br />Again with misrepresenting the science behind the theory. Sad, really.Stipetichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17599360018738666001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-58566534705867141102014-02-12T11:29:46.730+00:002014-02-12T11:29:46.730+00:00@Stipetic
'Scant evidence' refers to the a...@Stipetic<br />'Scant evidence' refers to the acorns, not the legumes. Please read the paper again. While you're at it, notice how much of the legumes you have to eat to get lathyrism.<br /><br />@raphi<br />Until recently it was thought that ancient humans lived on meat, which explained their large brains. Nowadays it's generally accepted that vegetarians have large brains too. <br />Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-18086197203303097322014-02-12T09:34:29.076+00:002014-02-12T09:34:29.076+00:00Jane says:
... we assume that the main source of ...Jane says:<br /><br />... we assume that the main source of energy in the diet of the Kebara inhabitants was the legumes ...'<br /><br />The full quote: "We believe that acorns were eaten and provided an important source of energy. But since we have only scant scientific evidence we assume that the main source of energy in the diet of the Kebara inhabitants was the legumes, as their seeds form the vast majority of plant remains found in the cave." <br /><br />Key words: scant evidence.<br /><br />Words for Jane to look up: qualitative versus quantitative.<br /><br />Interesting quote from the article: "The danger of excess consumption of legumes is contracting lathyrism; this medical condition causes its victims to walk on the balls of their feet with the pelvis tilted. On the Indian subcontinent, the stage of lathyrism is crudely but usefully classified on a four point scale of increasing physical impairment: no-stick cases (mildly affected), one stick cases, two-stick cases (severe impairment), and crawler-stage cases, when victims are unable to move the legs and the hands are used to move the body on the rump."<br /><br />Legumes anyone?Stipetichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17599360018738666001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-18978124326474495082014-02-11T19:03:33.716+00:002014-02-11T19:03:33.716+00:00raphi the control is the redox potential of the ce...raphi the control is the redox potential of the cells or tissues in question. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06619419812590914435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-56880915340495013442014-02-11T16:19:24.163+00:002014-02-11T16:19:24.163+00:00We could also wash down glazed donuts with tea or ...We could also wash down glazed donuts with tea or coffee which are rich in Mn (I am actually joking if it is not clear enough).Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-55457783596678448592014-02-11T15:55:28.372+00:002014-02-11T15:55:28.372+00:00@Jane
Your first remarks are too irrelvant and si...@Jane<br /><br />Your first remarks are too irrelvant and silly to address.<br /><br />You realise phytic acid inhibits other nutrients than iron, right?<br /><br />Also, I doubt HGs purposely spent energy gathering foods just so their constituent nutrients/minerals could NOT be utilized...<br /><br />We found legume remains in a cave many thousands of years ago, ergo ---> eat legumes?<br />Hhhmmm, a very flimsy & superficial argument.<br /><br />I'm out. Enjoy your time on the interwebz. Careful, the tubes are windy!raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-14699003505172238612014-02-11T14:47:13.139+00:002014-02-11T14:47:13.139+00:00Hi raphi
You think I'm cheeky? Well Peter is ...Hi raphi<br />You think I'm cheeky? Well Peter is quite cheeky too so I don't expect he minds. Especially since I did exactly the same thing to his arch enemy.<br /><br />Yes of course I think the minerals and other things in whole grains negate the harmful effects. Minerals are there for a reason. When the grain germinates they activate enzymes of carbohydrate metabolism. Eat the carbohydrate without them and it becomes toxic. <br /><br />And of course you don't need to get your manganese from sugar or flour. Paleolithic people ate legumes! Legumes have lots of manganese and lots of phytic acid to inhibit iron absorption. There's really nothing better to eat with your red meat. Chili con carne, yum. <br /><br />Mousterian vegetal food in Kebara Cave, Mt Carmel<br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440304001694# <br /><br />'This paper reconstructs the vegetal diet of the Middle Paleolithic humans in Kebara cave (Mt. Carmel, Israel) on the basis of a large collection of charred seeds and other vegetal food remains uncovered during the excavations. ... almost all plant remains (3313 seeds, 78.8% of total charred remains) belong to the legume family ... we assume that the main source of energy in the diet of the Kebara inhabitants was the legumes ...'Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-29450549472759253922014-02-10T13:26:10.737+00:002014-02-10T13:26:10.737+00:00@Jane
"Yes indeed, sugar and flour. White su...@Jane<br /><br />"Yes indeed, sugar and flour. White sugar and white flour"<br /><br />Your being cheeky: the implication behind what you're saying here (and in the posts above) is that the manganese in those non-white sugars & flours negates the other harmful effects.<br /><br />Why not get manganese from other things than sugar or flour? Can you really build a convincing argument for such a dietary approach? (don't waste your time, you'd be chasing rainbows)<br /><br />[Karl Popper] “the method of science as the method of bold conjectures and ingenious and severe attempts to refute them.” ---> you're not even attempting this (as far as I can tell from what you're saying in the comments)raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-41185269917691668442014-02-10T12:40:26.009+00:002014-02-10T12:40:26.009+00:00Yes indeed, sugar and flour. White sugar and whit...Yes indeed, sugar and flour. White sugar and white flour. They will trash your beta cells so you get hyperglycaemia, and your brain so you get Alzheimer's. I suspect the drug companies know this. They aren't looking for an Alzheimer cure any more, having produced various drugs at vast expense which either didn't work or made the patients worse.<br /> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/drug-giants-give-up-on-alzheimers-cure-8153606.html <br /><br />It looks like plaques are harmless as raphi suggests, and tangles are the problem. Tangles block intracellular transport. Autophagy fails because damaged stuff can't get to lysosomes for breakdown. The brain people are getting very excited about this. <br /><br />There shouldn't be any tangles if an enzyme called phosphatase-2A is working properly. It's a manganese enzyme. Hahaha. White flour has very little manganese and white sugar has none at all. I wonder when the drug companies will be telling us about this. Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-2720812099590362552014-02-10T05:34:05.443+00:002014-02-10T05:34:05.443+00:00raphi, this is probably close to what happens. I l...raphi, this is probably close to what happens. I look at glucose as being benign at 4.3mmol/l. At 20mmol/l it will generate insulin resistance through mtG3Pdh on the mitochondrial surface. While it is possible to convert lactate to G3P I very much doubt that neurons will do this (not sure anyone has checked). This (hyperglycaemia) will induce the insulin resistance of caloric overload and, if extreme, will trash complex I initially and probably the mtDNA for critical complex I subunits for more long term damage.<br /><br />To me, hyperglycaemia is probably all you need. Some degree of insulin resistance (sucrose) and a rapid access refined source of bulk glucose (flour) would fit the bill.<br /><br />Outside the brain you can limit the extent of hyperglycaemia from glucose using PUFA as your fat to limit ETFdh based FADH2, so limit reverse electron flow through complex I. If this limits post prandial hyperglycaemia the brain will last longer. The cost is, of course, maintained peripheral sensitivity to insulin in the face of hyperinsulinaemia. Both adipocyte hypertrophy and adipose tissue hyperplasia should follow. With unrestricted caloric entrance to cells they will accumulate triglyceride and/or divide. So you could hypothesis that bulk PUFA (to all peripheral tissues) should give obesity and cancer with some improved insulin sensitivity… No surprises there then.<br /><br />The situation under conditions of very, very low fat intake are interesting too. It’s hard to induce insulin resistance in lab rats using sucrose, provided fat is held close to zero… But no one in their right mind would try this on a human IRL. Fat elimination from your diet is a neurobehavioral illness per se. <br /><br />I keep thinking that the two transportable food commodities before refrigeration where sugar and flour… All human diets carry some fat, you don’t need to add that…<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-118677308554829872014-02-09T22:28:17.373+00:002014-02-09T22:28:17.373+00:00@Jack Kruse
How should they control for this in y...@Jack Kruse<br /><br />How should they control for this in your opinion?raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-69728176538534689472014-02-09T22:27:09.970+00:002014-02-09T22:27:09.970+00:00Hey Peter,
What you said here: “People with metab...Hey Peter,<br /><br />What you said here: “People with metabolic syndrome will automatically generate a systemic lactate spike after bulk liquid fructose as you would expect.”<br /><br />Made me think of Stephanie Seneff’s hypothesis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21402242) regarding the possible role of ABeta plaques in Alzheimer’s Disease not necessarily as causative agents initially, but more like stop-gap, ‘alternative buffer’ type measures —> <br /><br />“An interesting theory regarding lactate proposes that astrocytes<br />shuttle lactate to neurons during periods of intense activity, to supply an alternative fuel source to glucose [8]. Indeed, lactate is inter- changeable with glucose to support oxidative metabolism in cortical neurons [76]. Under this hypothesis, astrocytes convert pyruvate to lactate (utilizing lactate dehydrogenase) and shuttle the lactate to neurons, which could generate ATP from it, thus further reducing their dependency on glucose metabolism in the mitochondria. This would result in reduced exposure to glucose in the neuron, thus decreasing susceptibility to glycation damage. Lactate supply directly from the blood serum is not an option for neurons due to the BBB.”<br /><br />The seemingly contradictory correlations acting as coping mechanisms you mentioned here: “Oddly enough [uric acid] is associated with metabolic syndrome AND longevity. It’s a coping mechanism” —> seem conceptually similar to the role of ABeta plaques she proposes.<br /><br />I’m getting through all her papers and whether or not she ends up vindicated (as to the fundamental cause of Mets) to any meaningful extent, her ideas are quite beautiful nonetheless [IMHO].raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-59209767417291536282014-02-09T19:41:31.206+00:002014-02-09T19:41:31.206+00:00raphi,
As far as I can see the role of fructose i...raphi,<br /><br />As far as I can see the role of fructose is the generation of glycogen in the liver. Penetration past the liver to the systemic circulation obviously happens if the uptake from the gut exceeds the liver’s ability to convert it to glycogen, and in excess, to fat.<br /><br />This is the liver’s job. A giant orange juice will overwhelm the liver and we then have systemic fructose which can enter energy replete cells without the break of limited GLUT4s. The fructose specific GLUT5s are not acutely controlled by insulin so allow caloric overload. Insulin resistance increases to limit glucose derived calories to compensate for the mass of fructose.<br /><br />Interstingly uric acid is essential to this process, I have a paper somewhere showing allopurinol blocks metabolic syndrome by stopping the formation of uric acid. Uric acid is a powerful antioxidant and you would expect it to wipe out the nano molar pulse of superoxide/H2O2 which triggers insulin signalling.<br /><br />Of course uric acid is another devil incarnate which, from the above, is utterly essential. Oddly enough it is associated with metabolic syndrome AND longevity. It’s a coping mechanism. Getting rid of it does not strike me as a Good Idea.<br /><br />People with metabolic syndrome will automatically generate a systemic lactate spike after bulk liquid fructose as you would expect.<br /><br />I agree lactate is central to may crucial processes. Neurons appear to run on lactate, generated by glial cells. Glial cells take all the metabolic hits from glycolysis and feed “clean” lactate to neurons for which it is a one step conversion to pyruvate and the TCA. No glycerol 3 phosphate, no reverse electron flow, no superoxide so long as glucose never goes above some arbitrary but low number. Of course the lactate here is under strict control and comes from glucose.<br /><br />It would be insanity to allow Fanta to control lactate production.<br /><br />Fruit seems ok if you must, extracted juice is bottled diabetes. Stan has that great ref to fruit juice and associated diabetes. Causation seems likely to me.<br /><br />BTW, LC high saturated fat is a starvation mimetic. I’m circumspect about fruit. Some seems OK for recreational purposes, very occasionally. On a mixed paleo diet it’s probably OK, but I don’t go there.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54316185631321758982014-02-09T17:01:05.920+00:002014-02-09T17:01:05.920+00:00Lactate can open the door to heaven or hell depend...Lactate can open the door to heaven or hell depending upon the cells redox state. That is controlled by the charge separation of water into negative -OH groups and protons. Al the studies that Kresser talks about never control for this.....making his beliefs based upon faulty experiments. He is right to point out that what we all were taught about lactate is wrong. It is tied to the cellular terroir.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06619419812590914435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-50373834478158829152014-02-09T16:31:36.006+00:002014-02-09T16:31:36.006+00:00Hi Peter,
Taken from Chris Kresser's article ...Hi Peter,<br /><br />Taken from Chris Kresser's article downplaying the harmfulness of fructose (http://chriskresser.com/ask-chris-is-fructose-really-that-bad):<br /><br />"The bulk of the evidence suggests that lactate is an important intermediary in numerous metabolic processes, a particularly mobile fuel for aerobic metabolism, and perhaps a mediator of redox state among various compartments both within and between cells… Lactate can no longer be considered the usual suspect for metabolic ‘crimes’, but is instead a central player in cellular, regional and whole body metabolism."<br /><br />What say you?<br /><br />I ask because I was reading Stephanie Seneff's paper (http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/AMS.pdf) which argues that fructose (in humans) converts substantially to fat - Kresser argues the opposite with isotope studies in humans.raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-87217485462107066282014-02-08T23:01:35.950+00:002014-02-08T23:01:35.950+00:00Charles:
You are so strident and combative about ...Charles:<br /><br />You are so strident and combative about your health choices. What about the effects of emotions and personal interactions on heart disease and health in general? Being pissed-off at people who have chosen a different diet or approach to health seems like such a waste of your time. Do you think you are going to change anyone's perspective here? Get outdoors with like-minded souls and enjoy yourself! Or, write a book about your experience.STGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12024579727953422145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-83518286659721745962014-02-06T19:55:56.757+00:002014-02-06T19:55:56.757+00:00I think it is totally bizarre to compare side-effe...I think it is totally bizarre to compare side-effects of a drag which disrupts how a human body works in order to try to micro-manage a complex body system in attempt to change just a marker of metabolic health, and the chance of getting atherosclerosis even while living a healthy life-style. It is the fundamentally flawed approach toward health management. How many trails failed when prefect health markers like blood sugar and blood pressure were managed pharmacologically?Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-39000843542852079912014-02-06T09:46:03.146+00:002014-02-06T09:46:03.146+00:00@ Charles, if you only look at the abstracts on Da...@ Charles, if you only look at the abstracts on David Evan's links at Healthy Diets and Science, you might think they contradict his precis.<br />But if you read the full-text articles you can see his summaries are accurate. He may be cherry-picking results that suit the "good cholesterol" hypothesis, but if the "bad cholesterol" hypothesis were true he would not be able to find hundreds of studies to pick cherries from, would he?<br />How many studies are there that seem to show cigarettes prevent cancer? Not many, if any. Once a true hypothesis is defined reasonably correctly it becomes hard to cherry-pick evidence to the contrary. Certainly not to the tune of hundreds of studies.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.com