tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post5686525790482600015..comments2024-03-27T22:57:00.742+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Cirrhosis and fish oilPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-64687783519423536352013-04-19T05:33:42.805+00:002013-04-19T05:33:42.805+00:00Hi Nick,
No one has any idea where to start on a ...Hi Nick,<br /><br />No one has any idea where to start on a query like this, certainly I would not expect anyone to take internet advice from some metabolic oddball like myself. If you friend really wants to look at matters beyond drugs for hep C they could do worse than starting with George's blog, he knows a great deal about hep C... And follow the links. Following advice is crazy, following links and understanding the implications before deciding what advice to take might well have some benefit.<br /><br />George's blog:<br /><br />http://hopefulgeranium.blogspot.co.nz/<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-32707968177934575682013-04-18T04:18:49.020+00:002013-04-18T04:18:49.020+00:00Hi Peter,
This is just a shot in the dark, really...Hi Peter,<br /><br />This is just a shot in the dark, really. A good friend of mine has stage 2 cirrhosis caused by hepatitis C. She does not drink alcohol but does eat a fair amount of PUFA (peanut butter). Right now she eats a lot of tapioca because it doesn't upset her stomach. Given that her cirrhosis is not caused by NASH, I'm wondering how much avoiding PUFAs might be worthwhile for her. She is about to start a very invasive treatment that includes interferon. She also eats a fair amount of dried prunes, which I imagine are fairly high does of fructose. <br /><br />Any thoughts on what you would eat in this scenario?<br /><br />Many thanks for your reply.<br />NickNickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05352151855145958818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-35410316629763963932011-10-29T19:07:08.051+00:002011-10-29T19:07:08.051+00:00Hi Hanna,
So long as it is not a source of bulk c...Hi Hanna,<br /><br />So long as it is not a source of bulk calories I doubt it much matters. A few grams a day won't do much harm and might do a little good...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-62808775416412871732011-10-29T12:26:07.493+00:002011-10-29T12:26:07.493+00:00what about krill oil instead of fish oil?what about krill oil instead of fish oil?Hannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09721364119557070087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-40298350606285541722011-04-06T06:21:17.213+00:002011-04-06T06:21:17.213+00:00Hi Martin,
Butter is an excellent source of calor...Hi Martin,<br /><br />Butter is an excellent source of calories. Buying from a source produced anywhere other than the USA will get you enough DHA, especially if you also eat fish every few weeks. Shifting meat sources away from chicken/pork towards lamb and beef would help. Alcohol and sugar limited to recreational use rather than as sources of calories.<br /><br />Absolutely no vegetable oils.<br /><br />That's basically what I do.....<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36251089084879113032011-04-06T05:01:40.253+00:002011-04-06T05:01:40.253+00:00Hi Peter,
Alcohol (by far not excessive) and sup...Hi Peter, <br /><br />Alcohol (by far not excessive) and supplementing fish oil the last couple of years made me a lab rat just like the ones in the study. I developed upper right abdominal tenderness and face eczema.<br /><br />I have been experimenting last few months with eliminating foods and came to the current diet of eliminating gluten, lactose, fructose and alcohol. Most eczema is gone but the abdominal tenderness persists. After reading your post (many thanks!) fish oil is now off too and it does make considerable difference. It is warrying to see that sometimes fish oil is recommended as treatment of intestinal permeability<br />http://www.ei-resource.org/articles/leaky-gut-syndrome-articles/intestinal-permeability-or-leaky-gut/<br /><br />So far no lab results other than negative small intestine biopsy (made 3 months down the gluten free diet though) and negative abdominal ultrasound scan. As both conditions are not gone completely would you have some suggestions on what to do, read and eat (and not eat) next?Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384431420123926712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-67008939640704608162010-03-16T17:52:11.859+00:002010-03-16T17:52:11.859+00:00Hi friends, I love these blogs about diseases and ...Hi friends, I love these blogs about diseases and cities, when I was in college did a very good study called <a href="http://www.livercells.net/" title="liver cells" rel="nofollow">liver cells</a>, where I learned a lot about this subjectMarcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529686695507362300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-429331078980925122009-12-04T21:26:08.146+00:002009-12-04T21:26:08.146+00:00Hmm, what was the ratio of Omega 3 to "satura...Hmm, what was the ratio of Omega 3 to "saturated fats" (palmitic and/or stearic) in these rat experiments?Prostatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06132870260488363887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37154344913096884132009-12-04T12:31:35.797+00:002009-12-04T12:31:35.797+00:00Hi Nate,
Thanks for the offer but it's arrive...Hi Nate,<br /><br />Thanks for the offer but it's arrived off blog. Kind of you to offer.<br /><br />G and Robert, I have memories of Mercola suggesting CLO at some dose rate like 5ml/lb. For a big human that's a lot. The "fishy burp" should not be part of life! Some DHA, yes. Sorry these posts and my return comments seem to be totally random in order!<br /><br />And re taurine and rickets, we need to talk vegetarians in Glasgow along these lines. Very interesting. I suspect humans are not as hot on taurine production as we supposed to be!<br /><br />Lyon study, the big confounder is also that the intervention group appear to have been told to eat Food, as opposed to the sort of cr@p that gets the French equivalent of AHA approval for the usual care group. I suppose we do need the study to be replicated too. It is a bit of a one off in diet interventions!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-65933654923154182192009-12-03T22:11:53.452+00:002009-12-03T22:11:53.452+00:00(whoops...Wulzen Factor, not 'X' factor wh...(whoops...Wulzen Factor, not 'X' factor which is K2)Dr. B Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451872961651116061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-75897611622845652072009-12-02T16:38:36.778+00:002009-12-02T16:38:36.778+00:00Cristian!
SCORE! Taurine is great stuff. Do we n...Cristian!<br /><br />SCORE! Taurine is great stuff. Do we neolithic humans get our quota??! I dunno...<br /><br />These lion cub babies were dying from rickets despite vitamin D supplementation until taurine was added as cold-pressed cod liver oil.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349374?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1" rel="nofollow">Rickets in lion cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: some new insights.</a><br />Chesney RW, Hedberg G.<br />Pediatrics. 2009 May;123(5):e948-50.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Peter,<br /><br />I've thought about this. Yeah scarey. I love the outcomes from Lyon Diet Heart 76% risk reduction of death and cardiac events including cancers, suicide and fatal accidents (almost as impressive as niacin/PUMA-G KB agonism HATS trial 2001 NEJM with 90% risk reduction in death and events).<br /><br />But... basically Lyon Heart is a flaxseed oil trial not really fish oil EPA DHA. The margarine was ALA and the diet had minor but potent reductions in toxic n-6 (junk food, grain-fed sausage and deli meats?). They ate a little more fish per week but not much. An extra 1 serv perhaps? <br /><br />The consensus I get from centarian studies and those like Lyon Heart are that each society has sources of: SFAs (short med long chain) EPA DHA ALA, taurine, ocean minerals (incl iodine chromium Mg Se etc) and sunlight. Crete Okinawan Belgium France and Sweden come to mind... I don't know about NASH but these have the longest lifespans and lowests CAD and cancer... Sunlight maybe the big difference for the northern countries but perhaps the EPA DHA makes up for it for the Inuit and other trad'l northern H-G? I think apoE4 types requires less vegetation and perhaps less ALA some evidence suggests. <br /><br />I don't understand this article yet -- stigmasterol is the heat-labile Factor 'X' as identified by Weston Price in clover-fed butter oil. (Taurine is in raw grassfed butter and meat too) Also they reduced the sat fat in the diet -- not good as we know for ALL apo E types (Krauss et al) but worst lipo effects I believe for apo E4.<br /><br />http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/139/1/13<br /><br />-GDr. B Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451872961651116061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-79148321794618178642009-12-02T14:57:31.190+00:002009-12-02T14:57:31.190+00:00Yes, it doesn't come over in the posts but we ...Yes, it doesn't come over in the posts but we have two labs here, both using extreme "models" to get detectable changes in a few weeks. The models look to be interchangeable to me and, while I hope no one would even remotely consider taking 30% of their calories as fish oils, this does not seem an impossible achievement using corn oil. They do the same. In many ways it would have been much better if both labs had used corn oil, but they didn't!<br /><br />If we assume that the <a href="http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/779/T3" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Lyon Diet Heart Study</a> achieved its effects through altering omega 3 to 6 PUFA ratios while keeping omega 6 PUFA below 8g/d, then a couple of grams a day of omega 3s from fish oil should be fine in my book. Bearing in mind that fish oil is far from 100% omega 3s, this is roughly where I got my 5g/d fish oil from...<br /><br />I agree re sat fats, palmitic acid looks to be as much a hormone as a nutrient to me, it's one of the concepts DrBG puts nicely...<br /><br />Peter<br /><br />Caphuff, don't drink corn oil, do eat saturated fat. This should minimise booze induced damage but better minimse the booze too...Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-15043861216693283972009-12-02T14:35:59.248+00:002009-12-02T14:35:59.248+00:00can someone please give an executive summary of al...can someone please give an executive summary of all this?<br /><br />(BTW, by "executive summary" I mean pretend you're explaining it to a 5-year old.)caphuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17630921602227752611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-27927283664239725562009-12-02T14:27:56.064+00:002009-12-02T14:27:56.064+00:00Great blogs Peter
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/...Great blogs Peter<br /><br /><br />http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/299/2/638/T2.expansion.html<br /><br />Fish oil-dextrose <br />Fatty liver 0.02-b Necrosis 0.01 ± 0.012-b <br />Inflammation 0.2 ± 0.12-b<br /><br />"Control animals fed the fish oil-dextrose diet (group 5) showed no pathological changes."<br /><br />It is the alcohol and not the fish oil that is leading to the condition. (-:<br /><br />I have no problem with the idea 30% of cals from, fish oil is not a good idea, but do believe based on an argument of shoreline ancestry, and a pile of trials on a huge range of subjects that we are designed for some DHA in our diet, but can on a nutrient dense paleo diet just manage without it (but not with high alcohol intake which helps remove DHA form the brain and other tissues).<br /><br />I am also believe unadulterated saturated fats from natural sources have an important part in human metabolism.<br /><br />Eating fish is in the natural order of things, we tend to forget mass production of alcohol is probably not a widespread paleo trait.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37447791217611189882009-12-02T14:07:15.545+00:002009-12-02T14:07:15.545+00:00I would suggest that it would be quite reasonable ...I would suggest that it would be quite reasonable ask a group of people with fatty liver disease to eliminate all vegetable oils from their diet as far as possible. You would have to replace these calories with something. Saturated fat would minimise your variables compared to using carbohydrate.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-82298051260060581552009-12-02T14:02:48.800+00:002009-12-02T14:02:48.800+00:00Blogblog,
This would be a valid comment if it wer...Blogblog,<br /><br />This would be a valid comment if it weren't for the fact that fish oil was being used as an equivalent of the corn oil used in the first paper. When corn oil was being used it was able to cause pathology at levels of intake easily achievable with generous mayonnaise usage, around 15% of calories. I would agree that 0.1mol/l is a lot of alcohol but clearly less is certainly effective in humans (unless you would argue that alcohol is harmless to humans) and fructose appears to be a perfectly reasonable substitute. It would be nice to think that corn oil and alcohol were harmless to humans, despite their being so toxic to rats, but that's wistful thinking.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-13501039548086649592009-12-02T11:38:43.321+00:002009-12-02T11:38:43.321+00:00so do you propose we test new hypotheses with huma...so do you propose we test new hypotheses with humans? that we'll make faster progress this way?websterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943125982785108922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-5558196944107985422009-12-02T11:12:06.433+00:002009-12-02T11:12:06.433+00:00A fatal dose of ethanol for humans is 400mg/kg. Fo...A fatal dose of ethanol for humans is 400mg/kg. For rats it is 7000+mg/kg - almost 20x as high. In fact rats are so tolerant to most toxins that any comparison to humans is utterly meaningless.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-2162194051719232812009-12-02T11:04:42.084+00:002009-12-02T11:04:42.084+00:00Like virtually every other paper published on nutr...Like virtually every other paper published on nutrition both these papers are are the worst type of junk science. They have absolutely no basis in reality or relevance to human health.<br /><br />There is absolutely no valid scientific reason for using rats as a human nutritional model. In fact there is no other mammal that is even a vaguely realistic model for human nutrition. Humans and giant pandas are both unique in that our natural diets are radically different to our nearest relatives. Pandas are bamboo eating bears and we are carnivorous apes. <br /><br />The only reason for using rats is that they are small, short-lived and most people hate them. This means anti-vivesectionists won't protest too much when extremely cruel and utterly irrelevant "scientific" experiments are performed on rats. <br /><br />The Pharmacology study is absolute BS. No human could possibly consume 10-16g/kg/day of ethanol. This is equivalent to a 70kg man drinking 15-25 litres of beer a day. Any human would be dead within hours from acute alcohol poisoning. <br /><br />Likewise no human is ever going to get 35% of their calories from fish oil - it would result in chronic diarrhoea. Even the Inuits only managed a maximum 5% of their calorie intake as fish oil - none of it in liquid form.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-40983305819895275922009-12-02T05:08:36.546+00:002009-12-02T05:08:36.546+00:00Well. Only rats get 30-35% fish oil... rat-breath?...Well. Only rats get 30-35% fish oil... rat-breath? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Peter,<br /><br />You should consider going into the market for hang-over remedies. Package up some beef tallow (or flavor-less MCT or palm oil)! <br /><br />(Bacon and burgers are the best remedy for me *wink*)Dr. B Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451872961651116061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47106080274449689532009-12-02T05:06:00.482+00:002009-12-02T05:06:00.482+00:00great postgreat postwebsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943125982785108922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-23786742658298836552009-12-02T04:43:36.100+00:002009-12-02T04:43:36.100+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.websterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943125982785108922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-72535103945611072332009-12-02T04:05:16.259+00:002009-12-02T04:05:16.259+00:0030% of your calories as fishoil... mmm can you ima...30% of your calories as fishoil... mmm can you imagine your breath after that, not even the flavoured ones could save you :P<br /><br />...i've got that first article if your interested in looking deeper.... i'lll leave my email on my profile for a 2 days.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03367296690005148226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-56787293313443660612009-12-01T21:43:32.107+00:002009-12-01T21:43:32.107+00:00Hi Christian, thanks for the links. They make me t...Hi Christian, thanks for the links. They make me think of cats and lipidosis again, this time from the taurine perspective.<br /><br />Rosenfeltc, that depends. I've seen studies where the A and D content of CLO undo the potential damage of high dose omega 3s but again, not to hand.<br /><br />Pyker, yes, Friday is some time away. I'm not sure this rationing business is good for me. Maybe waiting is wrong...<br /><br />Linda, The two common causes of fatty liver are fructose and alcohol and PUFA, of any sort, convert it to inflamed liver. The dose has to be high for the omega 3s and I have no objection to 5ml of fish oil or CLO a day. Getting it up to 30% of your calories or up to three tablespoons a day seems risky to me. Again, there were minimal problems in the rats unless you added alcohol (or I guess fructose).<br /><br />Robert, yes, but the same applies to people downing CLO from a room temperature opened bottle. I agree, you do seem to need that trigger and as these were alcohol studies, that's what they used. Fructose probably works just as well. There was a comment somewhere in the papers that a fatty liver is the pre requisite for inflammation, and that PUFA were needed to generate the lipid peroxides to activate NF-kappaB and get to steatohepatitis.<br /><br />CoreyLH, Glad to hear it. I wonder about pre and post change hepatic ultrasounds... Biopsies would be even better but, as an anaesthetist, no one would get near my liver with a needle without a damned good reason and 8 units of matched blood available!<br /><br />Kurt, well yes but I like Hyperlipid. I've sort of grown attached to it! And it does roll off the tongue quite well...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-19165042383011892962009-12-01T19:40:13.245+00:002009-12-01T19:40:13.245+00:00Hi Peter
I think it is high time you find a new n...Hi Peter<br /><br />I think it is high time you find a new name for your blog.<br /><br />lipids include nasties like corn oil.<br /><br />How about:<br /><br />Hyperlongchainsfa<br /><br />Hyperbeefdripping<br /><br />HyperruminantfatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com