tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post6600246127665093050..comments2024-03-29T06:45:45.894+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Starvation and cancer growth: Sauer vs LisantiPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-65148512858103966492014-02-11T21:35:51.247+00:002014-02-11T21:35:51.247+00:00P1, he never looked at this. His interest was in t...P1, he never looked at this. His interest was in the tumour promoters produced from omega 6s and the switching effect of EPA on adipocyte FFA export. The problem was from the crappy fatty acids in omega 6 fed rats and EPA's ability to keep them locked away...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-31012904787977748262014-02-06T08:58:58.165+00:002014-02-06T08:58:58.165+00:00For those who did not read Sauer, can you comment ...For those who did not read Sauer, can you comment on the protocol he used to test Omega-3 versus the protocol he used for Omega-6?<br /><br />Since these two compete against each other over limited pathways, it would be interesting to see if his protocol guaranteed that each was being tested completely independently of the other.P1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10150386241231733361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47543272104360243992013-09-03T01:32:32.259+00:002013-09-03T01:32:32.259+00:00Eric: I've posted a first person account of my...Eric: I've posted a first person account of my partner's experience with ketogenic supplementation in the private Low Carb Hezbollah forum: http://lowcarbhezbollah.com/forums/ (registration required)<br /><br />For research, I started with Richard Veech's 2001 hypothesis paper on ketones for neurodegeneration:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11569918<br />and then just follow his trail forward:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/ (rat study)<br />Vanitallie's 2005 study involved 28 human subjects with PD:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15728303<br /><br />There has been very little recent research on ketones and PD, but Veech, Vanitallie, and D'Agostino all believe there's overlap between ALS, Alzheimer's, Huntington's, MS, and PD. I ended up at Deanna Tedone's site, where D'Agostino helped her father develop a multi-supplement protocol for ALS patients.<br />http://winningthefight.net/t/Research<br />Not all of those supplements are effective for PD, but my partner takes the 18g of Primaforce AAKG and liposomal or IV glutathione. He tried MCT oil and coconut oil per Dr. Mary Newport's work with her husband:<br />http://www.coconutketones.com/<br />but the AAKG is much easier to digest and accommodates higher dosing.<br /><br />And of course, where it all began:<br />http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2006/10/parkinsons-disease.html<br />http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/12/alzheimers-and-ketones.html<br />http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2011/10/adipostat-ballon.html<br />http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2012/04/firko-isation-without-all-hassle.html<br />If not for Peter's work in this area, we'd be in a much different place - a "not particularly pleasant" one, as he so acerbically put it.Laciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01121430731539402156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-87540896892446483342013-08-31T05:10:34.758+00:002013-08-31T05:10:34.758+00:00A question for Lacie.
I have Parkinson's and w...A question for Lacie.<br />I have Parkinson's and would like to read about your partner's experience with ketogenic supplements. Could you give me a link? Many thanks.<br /><br />Eric ThurstonEric Thurstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04184579803784550274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-69106375542261834362013-08-31T03:51:41.456+00:002013-08-31T03:51:41.456+00:00@George Henderson: I chatted with Dr. Ron Rosedale...@George Henderson: I chatted with Dr. Ron Rosedale briefly about PUFA's at AHS13. He sort of hinted that if your keto-adapted, PUFA's would just be used as fuel. If not, then they find different ways to wreck havoc... oxidizing, finding their way into cell membranes, etc. Definitely not an endorsement for processed seed oils, but keto-adapted people eating natural sources of fats that include PUFAs probably won't fall apart.<br /><br />I just finished reading Chris Masterjohn's <a href="http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous" rel="nofollow">article on Know your Fats</a>. Lots of good info there if you haven't read it already.js290https://www.blogger.com/profile/08157385596237909630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-59255972583121119992013-08-29T11:06:35.791+00:002013-08-29T11:06:35.791+00:00Something to ponder: omega 6 oils, even the unhyd...Something to ponder: omega 6 oils, even the unhydrogenated ones were recently shown to contain tans fats, nuts may lack that,as do eggs. And the omega 6 content of almonds isn't even that high ...Purposelessnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310957056111105419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-55267044234033825552013-08-29T04:35:47.791+00:002013-08-29T04:35:47.791+00:00@ Woo, Volek and Westman have papers showing membr...@ Woo, Volek and Westman have papers showing membrane fatty acids are conserved on ketogenic diets, meaning there is less flux through arachidonic acid>Cox2>LOX and fewer inflammatory consequences. Also, in fat burning mode, it's likely that PUFAs are consumed for fuel more consistently. How far this is protective, no-one knows, but it does make a measurable difference. And low-carb has always worked, even in dark days of lipid ignorance, trans-fats, and non-existence of omega-3 as a thing.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-35773657954869395572013-08-28T22:59:41.962+00:002013-08-28T22:59:41.962+00:00Fantastic blog Peter.
Still the best on the inter...Fantastic blog Peter.<br /><br />Still the best on the interwebs after all this time. No one else produces these insights, particularly not in an easy to digest witty format that is a pleasure to read.<br /><br /><br />Unfortunately this info does not bode well for my penchant of consuming dietary o6 like almonds and eggs; however I wonder if being relatively low body fat without excessive blood lipids in general would be protective even if one tends to be ketotic.<br /><br /><br />I would also argue that ironically this provides much stronger evidence for the relationship of cancer with conventional diets, insulin resistance and obesity; insulin resistance obesity features fat metabolism defects and elevated FFA as a result of impaired glucose tolerance. Attempting to oxidize glucose when your mitochondria are gimpy leads to very high insulin and severe obesity with normal glucose/FFA. On the other hand, it may lead to high insulin and hyperglycemia + elevated FFA from an inability to normally respond to insulin.<br /><br /><br />Perhaps the special relationship between cancers and obesity is not only IGF-1/insulin activation of growth factors, hyperglycemia... but *also* disturbed fat tissue insulin signalling leading to elevated FFA which happens to be significantly made of O6.<br /><br /><br />I would assume many LCers are better off ketogenic simply because removing the glucose portion of diet and not substantially increasing O6 portion (LC tends to result in spontaneous caloric reduction for obese people) would actually improve metabolism and fatty acid regulation, especially for diabetic insulin resistant people.<br />ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-21534243712801616322013-08-28T20:54:58.534+00:002013-08-28T20:54:58.534+00:00This is what I was looking for:
http://www.science...This is what I was looking for:<br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X04001408<br /><br />Rapid induction of apoptosis in prostate cancer cells by selenium: reversal by metabolites of arachidonate 5-lipoxygenase <br /><br />Now, Sauer's omega-6 fed cancer cells were hepatoma cells, and selenium deficiency favours the survival of hepatoma cells over hepatocytes.<br /><br />http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/63/20/6707.full<br /><br />Acquired Tolerance of Hepatocellular Carcinoma Cells to Selenium Deficiency<br />A Selective Survival Mechanism? <br /><br />So - TaDa!<br />We can tie together these omega 6 pro-cancer effects with the carcinogenesis of selenium deficiency.<br /><br />The lipoxygenase may be what is inhibited by omega 3 EFAs.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-48189006597893580312013-08-27T19:13:00.968+00:002013-08-27T19:13:00.968+00:00Peter, too interesting with ties between epigeneti...Peter, too interesting with ties between epigenetics and diet . . . not to post. I always assume anything with mentions of mice and diets and so forth will be of general interest. Brad Reid<br /><br />http://io9.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177Brad Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10275394962283072954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-51361002267014869642013-08-27T18:01:40.533+00:002013-08-27T18:01:40.533+00:00Despite the cancer-promoting effects of omega-6 oi...Despite the cancer-promoting effects of omega-6 oils, all but one of the human trials of ketogenic diets for cancer I can get my hands on about have put patients on vegetable oil diets (the other one used MCTs http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7759747). For example Schmidt et al 2011 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21794124) had their participants eat two "liquid meals" a day composed of the following ingredients.<br /><br />Highly fermented yoghurt-drink:<br />skimmed milk<br />plant oil mixture<br />pectin<br /><br />Vegetable oil mixture:<br />line seed oil<br />canola oil<br />walnut oil<br />MCT<br />grape seed oil<br />argan-oil<br />pumpkin seed oil<br /><br />Protein preparation:<br />milk-protein<br /><br />Additionally: "patients were encouraged to add additional servings (1 tablespoon each) of the oil mixture or other oils from olives, flaxseed and hempseed to the three principle meals." Despite poor compliance and lots of adverse reactions, they concluded the diet "might improve aspects of quality of life and blood parameters in some patients with advanced metastatic tumors." <br /><br />A recent research protocol from Fine at http://www.oncologypractice.com/co/journal/articles/0501022.pdf indicates "unsaturated oils for cooking."<br /><br />Two clinical trials are starting up based on the hydrogenated-soybean-oil-based (http://www.nutricia-na.com/pages/ketocal41.htm) KetoCal shake.<br />KETOPAN: http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01419483<br />KETOLUNG: http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01419587<br /><br />I'm waiting to get the full text on this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16839923 but since the diet was provided parenterally I'm going to assume it's based on vegetable oil.<br /><br />What a nightmare!GFrankehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12691809514744399668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-26417979859590686752013-08-27T05:23:03.782+00:002013-08-27T05:23:03.782+00:00Great post. Just out of curiosity, what are your t...Great post. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Peter Attia's latest post, in which he states that some people cannot lose fat without restricting fat? Cheers.Dissertantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15484104140341101755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-82809795042573909092013-08-26T05:22:57.758+00:002013-08-26T05:22:57.758+00:00@Lacie, @js290 -- I'm a buttinsky on several c...<br />@Lacie, @js290 -- I'm a buttinsky on several cancer boards and have seen Hyperbaric Oxygen therapy fail.<br /> <br />jmo, I think it's an opportunistic add-on to ketogenic diet and I gave Dr. D. in Florida an earful on his blog...and to his credit....he left it up.<br /><br />http://ketonutrition.blogspot.com/2012/12/starving-cancer-ketogenic-diet-key-to.html#!/2012/12/starving-cancer-ketogenic-diet-key-to.html<br /><br />The main points being these links indicate HBO therapy increases serum malondialdehyde -- one serious, scary carcinogen.<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12768736<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16529171<br /><br />-----------------------------------<br />And this link indicates HBO accelerates tumor growth after treatment.<br /><br />http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048432#close<br /><br />"We did not find any cancer enhancing effect during the HBO therapy. However, acceleration in tumor growth was observed following completion of HBO therapy. At the same time, mice subjected to HBO therapy lived shorter as compared to those not exposed to HBO therapy..." <br /><br />-----------------------------------<br /><br /><br />@Peter -- thank you so much for giving voice to Sauer's work. I had no idea of its quality and significance.<br /><br />The Lisanti study has been criticised by many, but i haven't read the omega-6s nailed so well. Dr. Eugene Fine, cancer researcher at Albert Einstein College of Medicine -- is probably not looking at omega-6s as closely as you but is looking at the majority of cancers in the real world, and echoing your conclusions.<br /><br />http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/targeting-insulin-inhibition-as-a-metabolic-therapy-in-advanced-cancer/<br /><br />"So I’d have nothing in principle against his research purporting to show this effect (four papers appearing in Cell, September 2011). However, his pathologic slide of a tumor shows that it consists of perhaps 75% stroma and 25% tumor by area, or close to 90% stroma by volume. This is quite different from the vast majority of human cancers, which are predominantly made up of cancer cells. Granted, some human breast cancers do indeed have more stroma than usual, but not the majority of tissue. Further, most human cancer types that have been tested have shown over-expression of glucose transporters and of FDG uptake within the cancer cells, not within the stroma. So my biggest concerns are that a) he’s dealing with an artifact of a human cancer growing in a mouse, which doesn’t represent what happens in humans and b) he hasn’t actually shown glycolysis in the stromal cells (the essence of what he terms the reverse Warburg effect and c) an injection of a ketone body is not at all the same as systemic ketosis due to reduced insulin signaling."<br /><br />---------------------------------<br /><br />all the best,<br />ronmehitabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613897450288812163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-14406789754560758782013-08-26T03:54:19.102+00:002013-08-26T03:54:19.102+00:00@ js290
"Abnormal tumor vasculature creates h...@ js290<br />"Abnormal tumor vasculature creates hypoxic pockets which promote cancer progression and further increase the glycolytic-dependency of cancers"<br />This sounds like Warburg or reverse-Warburg; the very architecture of cancer also helping force the generation of lactate.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-73641510116877821302013-08-26T03:35:03.845+00:002013-08-26T03:35:03.845+00:00Work that Dr. D'Agostino collaborated on: The...Work that Dr. D'Agostino collaborated on: <a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065522" rel="nofollow">The Ketogenic Diet and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Prolong Survival in Mice with Systemic Metastatic Cancer</a><br /><br />Apparently, Dr. Seyfried has raised similar questions as Peter in regards to Lisanti's work.js290https://www.blogger.com/profile/08157385596237909630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-80863466001007041312013-08-26T00:01:36.726+00:002013-08-26T00:01:36.726+00:00Sorry, DHA protects against steatosis by stimulati...Sorry, DHA protects against steatosis by stimulating beta-oxidation (via its peroxidation in situ), at least in hepatocytes (which is the model Sauer used).<br />Steatosis is a fairly large risk factor for cirrhosis, OR 5 or so. So, phases and stages of influence, as seems to be normal with cancer (e.g. folate - seems to both prevent and promote). What prevents carcinogenesis at one stage might possibly promote angiogenesis or inhibit immunity at another. Nature of the beast.<br />Differential effects of fish oil and corn oil on hepatic lipids in absence of alcohol - massive.<br />http://suppversity.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/high-fish-soy-lard-low-fat-diets-how-do.htmlPuddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-87589545153205176922013-08-25T23:11:49.174+00:002013-08-25T23:11:49.174+00:00Synchronicity, or at least coincidence: I found th...Synchronicity, or at least coincidence: I found this just today on the Dr. Vince and Deanna Tedone's ALS forum:<br />http://www.cancerdudes.com/dominic-dagostino-interview/<br />You might want to share the following link with anyone you know who has cancer. It's an interview with Dr. D'Agostino - "Eat Fats, Starve Cancer."<br /><br />Dr. Dominic D’Agostino is a professor at the University of South Florida doing some remarkable research. In his experiments on mice, he has seen that a ketogenic diet and hyperbaric oxygen therapy can “starve” tumor cells. Comprised of roughly 5% carbohydrates (from non-starchy vegetables), 15-20% quality protein, and 75%+ healthy fats, the ketogenic diet is what helped Elaine Cantin heal her breast cancer, as she shared in our interview.<br /><br />Dr. T and Dr. D. were my inspiration for helping my partner treat his Parkinson's with ketogenic supplements - with much success, as I wrote about in the LCH forum earlier this year.Laciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01121430731539402156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-38193036332976751162013-08-25T23:09:26.072+00:002013-08-25T23:09:26.072+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271425301991876999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-78993930928566112152013-08-25T21:51:32.254+00:002013-08-25T21:51:32.254+00:00Wow, that had me on the edge of my seat!
The expla...Wow, that had me on the edge of my seat!<br />The explanation around omega 3s may be something like this; that they are impeding whatever action of LA and AA is taking place; this could be some CYP-mediated alteration. Or, omega-3 stimulates beta-oxidation of all fats including itself and omega-6s before they become active.<br />I don't think the omega-3 cirrhosis mechanism is so clear cut - it certainly applies in alcohol toxicity, but alcohol is inducing a CYP that converts omega 3s (and retinol, so perhaps other lipids) to polar compounds. Drugs might do this too but other stressors might not. And omega 3 protects against steatosis by stimulating lipid peroxidation, the opposite of what omega 6 does.<br />Omega 3 is probably something that can be useful applied with some clinical discretion.<br />I wonder how fasting these rats would have affected their ascorbate metabolism, if all their ascorbate is made from glucose. Ascorbate I seem to recall inhibits angiogenesis in some way.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-43696802119896318432013-08-25T21:50:05.675+00:002013-08-25T21:50:05.675+00:00Thank you Peter. Depressing crap from current res...Thank you Peter. Depressing crap from current researchers, but that seems the norm these days. You seem to be doing a great job for cancer survivors of rebelling against (life threatening) disinformation.Suzanne Loomshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16051999973282339826noreply@blogger.com