tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post8668923130132406415..comments2024-03-18T22:09:37.509+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Cholesterol presentation: Between countriesPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-1834416853892341662014-12-03T00:02:36.238+00:002014-12-03T00:02:36.238+00:00I've come back to all your posts because of De...I've come back to all your posts because of Denise Minger's recent backflip on AHS14, "What we can learn from the vegans". I was quite concerned after viewing her performance because for a few days I was worried about my high fat intake. I'm currently going through your data because when I dropped my fat intake my hunger skyrocketted and my weight has increased 5 kg, practically 1 kg per week.Zeta's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440187070112334073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37310521568328011412013-01-16T03:11:18.153+00:002013-01-16T03:11:18.153+00:00Only a naive person would look at that last graph ...Only a naive person would look at that last graph and assume that there's no connection between high cholesterol and heart disease. There are simply other factors at work here. Russia, Northern Ireland, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic have very high rates of alcoholism, and countries like Iceland, Belgium, and Switzerland have excellent health care systems. The Swiss also live at a high altitude which is said to confer cardioprotective benefits. And a time lag explains the famous French Paradox, in addition to the undercertification of heart disease deaths in France:<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115846/<br /> <br />Some words on Ancel Keys:<br /><br />1. Keys selected the six countries because they were the only ones with reliable data which conformed to international standards. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unH-AEDKV8s)<br />2. You reference Yerushalmy and Hilleboe. Why do you fail to acknowledge the crux of their paper, that other factors correlated with ischemic heart disease better than total fat consumption, chiefly animal protein?<br />3. Where did you get your data showing low rates of CHD deaths in the Inuits, Masai, Rendille, and Tokelauans? And since these are isolated hunter-gatherer populations, how can you be sure they're not succumbing to heart disease because they simply die of other causes first like infectious diseases and malnutrition?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11480400452138076036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-2710156543684274162010-04-05T18:31:48.572+00:002010-04-05T18:31:48.572+00:00@ the first graph: Excel will do a smooth line. ...@ the first graph: Excel will do a smooth line. Choose Scatter Data with Smooth Line.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04080189015453345763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-6242401764959230232009-10-26T22:09:06.414+00:002009-10-26T22:09:06.414+00:00Hi, where can I get the original data used in this...Hi, where can I get the original data used in this post? Could you send me the articles you used in the post. <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />miguela71@yahoo.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09287751826278390718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36901748596640099422009-04-29T10:14:00.000+00:002009-04-29T10:14:00.000+00:00Hmmm, maybe like the hair loss that some people ge...Hmmm, maybe like the hair loss that some people get. Can be spectacular but transient...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-5085435644083810332009-04-29T09:22:00.000+00:002009-04-29T09:22:00.000+00:00The loss of libido was also something I noticed pe...The loss of libido was also something I noticed personaly when I went LC. But, it was only transitional, after some time it got again as it was before. I suppose it has to do with the change in metabolism, not with the food itself.gallier2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04285836062429366578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-8009515440779783542009-04-28T15:34:00.000+00:002009-04-28T15:34:00.000+00:00Hmmm, I was unaware of any lowering of testosteron...Hmmm, I was unaware of any lowering of testosterone on LC unless it is accompanied by a fall in testosterone binding protein, which then increases free testosterone. I think I read this somewhere, maybe 5 years ago. I think if loss of libido was a routine feature of LC eating the Ornishes and his like would have made very sure we all knew about it! I have to say it's not an effect either my wife or I have noticed.<br /><br />As LC fixes PCOS I don't see why it should fix one problem and cause another....<br /><br />Cordain is the weirdest guy. If he says something is so, I want to read the studies myself, in detail. He is undoubtedly being rehabilitated on the net after his idiocity on saturated fats, but he still has his name on some pretty unsavoury pro statin papers.<br /><br />Personally I'm eating about 10% of calories as protein (my diet is adequate protein, lowish but not ketogenic carbs and high saturated fat) and because I eat real food my only real sources of salt are cheese and bacon. Obviously, I'm not paleo, but I listen to what paleo tells me. I doubt I'm high salt or low enough carb to have problems (phew).<br /><br />Why dairy and not full paleo? The gifts to humans from plants are accidents or poisons. The gifts from cows are health giving to a calf, it's own genes. I steal that health....<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24367381457882778722009-04-28T14:59:00.000+00:002009-04-28T14:59:00.000+00:00Hi Peter,
Thank you for your thoughtful response....Hi Peter,<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughtful response. I'm new to the LC diet - since February of this year, so I am still trying to sort out all the changes. I am still having cognitive dissonance with regard to eating any kind of fats beyond a certain amount, which means I am likely eating more protein than I need (8-10% carbs from dairy, nuts and vegetables). I don't eat any PUFA oils unless unwittingly when I am in a restaurant. <br /><br />My experience mirrors yours with regard to alcohol, except I have to be very careful to eat when I drink, as alcohol can send my blood sugar very low, which I originally mistook for feeling under the influence. <br /><br />I recently read Cordain's book after browsing Stephan's nutrition hall of fame. Other than his dated opinion of saturated fats, I noticed two pieces of information that I have not seen on any of the LC blogs -- that testosterone is reduced on an LC diet and that highish salt intake disturbs sleep. <br /><br />Both topics are interesting to me and I wonder if there has been much discussion about each, though sleep is a very complicated subject. I would swear that my libido has decreased with the LC diet (though I suspect simultaneously giving up my 3x weekly three mile sprint/jogs may be more telling in this regard).<br /><br />Thanks again.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05352151855145958818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24213046221321400712009-04-26T12:39:00.000+00:002009-04-26T12:39:00.000+00:00Hi Nick,
I'm not sure that I, or anyone else, can...Hi Nick,<br /><br />I'm not sure that I, or anyone else, can set exact limits on what you can and can't do. As you are well aware, alcohol intake decreases the risk of CVD. You have to appreciate that there is no decrease in all cause mortality, the lower CVD deaths being roughly replaced by cancers, primarily of the digestive system. But this is in the context of eating the SAD, which ever country you live in... If you are eating a LC, low omega 6 PUFA diet then no one has researched your risk factors for anything, as there are currently no populations eating this way in a study-able manner.<br /><br />If you eat a largely animal fat based diet where the predominant fats (and total caloric sources) are either saturated or monounsaturated fats you will cope far better with alcohol that if you eat to the ADA food pyramid homicidal diet. Under a low PUFA diet I can't see 5g/d of high omega 3 fish oil doing any harm, merely because it is such a small percentage of your total fat intake. You don't need very much DHA each day unless you are drinking vegetable oil as if it was a health food.<br /><br />A few things I have noticed since LC eating re alcohol: I don't crave it much, I get very drunk very easily, I get minimal hangover. Richard, over at Free The Animal (http://www.freetheanimal.com/root/) has discussed a moderate alcohol intake and might have looked at the literature rather better than I have...<br /><br />HTH<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47657036254270133472009-04-24T18:20:00.000+00:002009-04-24T18:20:00.000+00:00Hi Peter,
Thank you for this eye-opening post (fo...Hi Peter,<br /><br />Thank you for this eye-opening post (for the neophyte).<br /><br />You mention that you think a moderate amount of supplementation of Omega 3 fish oil is good to do, but moderate the comment if one drinks a fair amount of alcohol. <br /><br />As background, I was told my FBS was in the pre-diabetic range last January (checked old blood tests and it has been around 100 for over 10 years) and that I have reactive hypoglycemia. This led me to the Blood Sugar 101 website and a whole new world of information that contradicted everything I thought I knew about diet and exercise. Linking to Jenny's blog list led me to many others, including Whole Health Source (I sit at his feet!) and Stephan's blog list and you. All of the thinking and information is new to me and jaw dropping. <br /><br />I am now LC with no grains and supplement with D, A (cod liver oil), and K2(butter oil). I also take 4000 IU Omega 3 fish oil. I still drink about 15oz of red wine each evening. I do not eat organ meats.<br /><br />Now I am curious to hear what amount of fish oil you consider safe, given my alcohol intake?<br /><br />Sorry for the long post, and I hope you don't mind the personal nature of my question in your comment section.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05352151855145958818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47364670432865583162009-03-10T10:13:00.000+00:002009-03-10T10:13:00.000+00:00Hi Dana,Again, you have to be very very careful ab...Hi Dana,<BR/><BR/>Again, you have to be very very careful about the data you are using. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a high level of free fatty acids in the blood stream will divert metabolism from glucose to fatty acids and that this phenomenon can be described as insulin resistance. Eating a high fat meal will invariably raise free fatty acids in the bloods stream and produce this perfectly natural selection of fats for the metabolic substrate.<BR/><BR/>The problems occur when it is impossible for the body to get the balance of fatty acid consumption aligned with glucose utilisation.<BR/><BR/>From here you have to go in to the causes of the metabolic syndrome, MS.<BR/><BR/>But while pathological failure of energy control (MS) is a disaster when you consume but cannot use glucose, it is no problem at all when you consume fat. You may well have a slightly higher fasting blood insulin than a healthy carb eater, but it will be miles below an insulin resistant carb eater.<BR/><BR/>Living on free fatty does not fix insulin resistance, it side steps it by making the energy source suit the injured metabolism. Ketone bodies do an even better job. Trying to live on carbs when you have broken your metabolism is very difficult. Going in to exactly what breaks your energy control system is very complex, but it is notable that the manouvers which ameliorate metabolic syndrome best, ie moderate ketogenic diets or fully paleolithic non ketogenic diets both control appetite spontaneously. Energy through put seems to be very important.<BR/><BR/>How well a given person responds to ketogenic or paleo diets probably depends very heavily on where you have been metabolically in your earlier life. I know full well that ItsTheWoo has a very interesting life history and does not find anything metabolically works particularly well without specific planning/control from herself. That's a very interesting situation that very few of us are (hopefully) ever likely to experience...<BR/><BR/>But the upshot of all of this is that I would expect that a healthy well fed Kitavan would probably have a lower fasting insulin than an equally healthy northern hunter gatherer living through late winter on plentiful cariboo fat, not by much but by some. The area under the curve for insulin and glucose would be lower in the HG over 24h, but both individuals would be functioning within normal physiology and be healthy.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-61492247756790918462009-03-10T00:52:00.000+00:002009-03-10T00:52:00.000+00:00ItsTheWoo..."High fat intakes promote hyperinsulin...ItsTheWoo...<BR/><BR/>"High fat intakes promote hyperinsulinemia when eating carbs with the fat..."<BR/><BR/>Read what you said again. WHEN EATING CARBS. Why does this matter? The nutritional definition of carbohydrate is sugar. All carbs are sugar. Even fiber is sugar, but you can't digest it, so it does nothing to you. Every one that you can digest, though, raises insulin levels.<BR/><BR/>Why would fat not raise insulin levels in the absence of carbs, which is the reverse implied by your statement? Because fat doesn't raise insulin. Therefore, fat does not cause hyperinsulinemia.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I'm a fattie too. If I drop the grains and sugar and eat lots of fat, I do lose weight and experience far fewer inflammation symptoms. (I'd go so far as to say the inflammation disappears, but I don't have access to a CRP test to say for sure.) Yes, even saturated. For Pete's sake, I cook with butter and bacon fat. If I forego the carbs, I thrive on this stuff. If I re-introduce them, I start swelling up again and my hands and joints bother me again and life is generally unpleasant.<BR/><BR/>It isn't the fat. Period.Dana Seilhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11749354913843954242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-27143357760598293592009-03-07T06:23:00.000+00:002009-03-07T06:23:00.000+00:00Hi Michelle,I think we have to be very careful her...Hi Michelle,<BR/><BR/>I think we have to be very careful here. High carb intake undoubtedly leads to severe hyperglycaemia/hyperinsulinaemia in the face of insulin resistance, but in normal insulin sensitivity circumstances a high carb intake still allows normoglycaemia with physiological levels of insulin. The nitty gritty is what, in the Western diet/environment causes insulin resistance per se. The Kitavans eat 70% of calories from carbs and do not become insulin resistance. Flooding someone's physiology with artificially raised FFAs immediately induces insulin resistance. The assumption that triggering a normal physiological mechanism explains a pathological state is where medicine is going wrong here. What we need to know is what is disturbing our physiology to upset what billions of years of adaptive development that has worked well until very recently, evolution-wise.<BR/><BR/>It is very very complex (to me anyway) and it does all have to fit together. Ideas are for kicking around, so everyone is, of course, very welcome to comment. I wish it were as simple as carbs are bad! <BR/><BR/>Though that is certainly true if your metabolism is damaged enough for you to be insulin resistant...<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-76854322037278934622009-03-07T02:37:00.000+00:002009-03-07T02:37:00.000+00:00Its the Wooo stated that saturated fat causes hype...Its the Wooo stated that saturated fat causes hyperinsulinemia. No, it's the high amount of carbs in our western diet that causes hyperinsulinemia. Hyperinsulinemia leads to inflammation, which leads to heart disease, among others.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13837086135640638087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-53459273463214312502009-03-04T19:32:00.000+00:002009-03-04T19:32:00.000+00:00Hi Quelle,I had a quick pubmed on aboriginals and ...Hi Quelle,<BR/><BR/>I had a quick pubmed on aboriginals and it seems they have minimal HDL and any LDL they have is of the small dense type, so I assume they are consuming a diet closely related to what a rat gets given to give it metabolic syndrome, ie fat with sucrose and possibly not a lot else. I was surprised at the low HDL in view of their reputed alcohol consumption...<BR/><BR/>BTW I would still stick with the diet being the problem and the lipid changes reflecting the diet, rather than the lipids being the problem per se. Impossible to seperate the two aspects though.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-91452834637749508652009-03-04T10:13:00.000+00:002009-03-04T10:13:00.000+00:00Yes, good reading for the after-life :)Yes, good reading for the after-life :)Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13529272218356712148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-16386555847245854932009-03-04T10:07:00.000+00:002009-03-04T10:07:00.000+00:00ItsTheWoo said:"There is lots of information about...ItsTheWoo said:<BR/><BR/>"There is lots of information about the relationship between fats and insulin resistance"<BR/><BR/>Think I'll rely on Gary Taubes' massive tomb for confirmation that rats don't count for much. He put in the time (five plus years), reached his conclusions, and saved me the bother.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13529272218356712148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-75626061534457477592009-03-04T05:25:00.000+00:002009-03-04T05:25:00.000+00:00Its TheWoo:"Fats promote higher calorie intake not...Its TheWoo:<BR/>"Fats promote higher calorie intake not because they "taste good", it is because inflammation increases insulin resistance which increases insulin level which makes us hungrier. Do deep ketosis for a few days, and magically food looks disgusting and eating feels unnatural, even if it is delicious pancakes with butter, they will look repulsive."<BR/><BR/>You're mixing facts and conjectures here. SFA's definitely not causing inflammation. Your mitochondria prefer it. Your body can desaturate it with enzyme as necessary. Moreover, when you fast (in deep ketosis) it's the fuel that the body burns. Peter made a point sometime ago (with my full agreement) that there's no difference between fasting and eating fat since in both cases the same stuff is being consumed whether coming through the stomach or from the body reserve.<BR/><BR/>The pre-occupation with insulin-sensitivity has less merit when considering the fuel you burn, if it is SFA/NEFA, needs no insulin for consumption. A much better yardstick for health would be achieving the low baseline insulin when your body at rest and/or needing a minimal amount to process a meal. Guess what kind of food can deliver those twin goals?<BR/>Best regards,<BR/>JohnJohnNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07639308289155393659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-6536458302544922202009-03-04T02:56:00.000+00:002009-03-04T02:56:00.000+00:00Now we can't complain we don't have freely availab...Now we can't complain we don't have freely available statistical data. Please see http://faostat.fao.org/site/609/DesktopDefault.aspx and http://faostat.fao.org/site/610/default.aspx.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-52811264968976279462009-03-04T01:53:00.000+00:002009-03-04T01:53:00.000+00:00Dear Petro, some more Excel data: http://www.fao.o...Dear Petro, some more Excel data: http://www.fao.org/es/ess/yearbook/vol_1_1/site_en.asp?page=consumption and also here http://ers.usda.gov/Data/FoodConsumption/spreadsheets/nutrients07.xls.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47023547885588099032009-03-02T13:40:00.000+00:002009-03-02T13:40:00.000+00:00Speaking of aboriginals...Anyone know the source f...Speaking of aboriginals...<BR/>Anyone know the source for Kendricks aboriginals lipid values? There was none in the book and values that I found from the net did not support what Malcom said in his book.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07667861526139963544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-5655214287562239242009-03-02T11:30:00.000+00:002009-03-02T11:30:00.000+00:00Westie,Yes, but think of all of that marvellous HD...Westie,<BR/><BR/>Yes, but think of all of that marvellous HDL they must die with! They are probably beaten by the Australian aboriginies who apparently have LDL to die for and masses of HDL (alcohol again?). And one of the highest CHD rates in the world.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-77037921476340576582009-03-02T10:20:00.000+00:002009-03-02T10:20:00.000+00:00Ricardo,Goldmine!!!!!!!!!!!!! HUGS (blushes, we do...Ricardo,<BR/><BR/>Goldmine!!!!!!!!!!!!! HUGS (blushes, we don't do that sort of thing in England). I've been wanting this sort of data for ages. Always too busy to go hunting, and until you find something you have no idea it's worth looking for!<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-44384572178449045312009-03-02T10:11:00.000+00:002009-03-02T10:11:00.000+00:00Hi ItsTheWoo,I know it's just observational bu...Hi ItsTheWoo,<BR/><BR/>I know it's just observational but Dr Garemo found that (based on 7 day food diaries) 4 year old children with BMI >25 ate 52g/d fat and 204g/d carbohydrate of which 48g was sucrose. The BMI <25 children ate 55g/d fat and 191g/d carbs of which 44g were sucrose. I find it difficult to see how eating more fat within a free choice situation could be responsible for the incidence of BMI >25 as the fat intake was highest in the slimmest children. Rat studies are notoriously difficult to dissect out and the rats usually have no choice about eating what they are given. When give a choice they are usually better than swedish children at making pro fat choices if they are going to stay slim or avoid diabetes.<BR/><BR/>I think we have to look further at what influences food choices and satiety. Obviously the overweight children were eating less protein, so may have been driven to eat more empty calories to get adequate protein for growth through poor food choices.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly absolute energy intakes between heavy and light children were the same and energy intake per kg bodyweight was significantly lower (p<0001) in the overweight children compared to the slimmer ones.<BR/><BR/>The paper is a bit difficult to pick apart but I find it interesting. Might put it up as a post some time now the full text is available.<BR/><BR/>Peter<BR/><BR/>But yes, keep kicking the ideas around... Personally I do find it interesting that adding 20% lard to a high sucrose rat diet is worse than the high sucrose diet alone. This is real and may have implications for humans if we are going to continue to maintain the essential profitability of Kraft and Unilever while supporting the amazing profitability of Astra Zeneca and co.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54195690730127525652009-03-01T20:54:00.000+00:002009-03-01T20:54:00.000+00:00Very interesting analysis. Just for your knowledge...Very interesting analysis. Just for your knowledge, there is a lot of this type of data available in Excel format at http://www.heartstats.org/atozindex.asp?id=8 I think it would be quite interesting to do the same analysis with more current data. Thanks for your website and work..https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.com