tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post3067394837479521300..comments2024-03-29T06:45:45.894+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Guess the weight of the mouse competitionPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-52216118732914956082012-09-22T09:02:57.604+00:002012-09-22T09:02:57.604+00:00Ah, the Good Doctor again. "I don't like ...Ah, the Good Doctor again. "I don't like the data, I'll ignore it". As insightful as a turnip. As I would expect!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-42097658419592602112012-09-21T05:29:00.890+00:002012-09-21T05:29:00.890+00:00Stephan Guyenet has guessed the weight of the mous...Stephan Guyenet has guessed the weight of the mouse, with some success after an initial setback:<br /><br />"Now let's discuss the piece de resistance: the two studies that reported that feeding mice a diet with a poor omega-6:3 balance (excessive omega-6) caused a multi-generational obesity phenotype (16, 17). I was planning to discuss those studies in my AHS talk, so I revisited them to make sure they were solid. Unfortunately, I discovered serious flaws in both papers that fatally undermine the authors' conclusions. The short version is that neither study was properly controlled to come to the conclusion that omega-6:3 balance influenced fat gain. Both studies compared diets that differed in many ways, and that fact was not reported straightforwardly. In retrospect, I feel misled by these papers. I should have read them more carefully, and I apologize to my readers for that. As there is already too much misinformation on the internet, I've taken the post down." <br />http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/seed-oils-and-body-fatness-problematic.htmlPuddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-78510085771405210462012-09-17T01:54:46.703+00:002012-09-17T01:54:46.703+00:00The Plains Indians didn't hunt Bison on horseb...The Plains Indians didn't hunt Bison on horseback before they had horses; however, I've read an account from the 1700s in which Algonquin slaughter bison en masse at close range. The large animals of the New World were not afraid of man and his weapons until they were nearly hunted to extinction. And all the giant species became extinct in the narrow time band after the arrival of man in the Americas, in a pattern closely following his migrations.<br />Algonquin were famous for eating meat, yet their word "esquimaux" meant "meat-eater", so they obviously didn't consider themselves the biggest carnivores around.<br />Everyone eats protein and fat, with a little gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis, when they're fasting, so of course it's the normal default diet. If you needed carbs to burn fat you'd not be able to fast (night starvation - it's a pathological state only).Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-49154522819783525512012-09-17T01:45:18.128+00:002012-09-17T01:45:18.128+00:00Thanks Peter and Karl. I admit that, while your vi...Thanks Peter and Karl. I admit that, while your views make more sense to me, unfortunately I sometimes find myself reacting illogically to the scribblings of said lipidologists. <br /><br />I do see that they all have their “tell” i.e. the jargon-camouflaged leaps of faith they make in their vehemently espoused views.<br /><br />I guess it would be nice to have all the answers. I’m just not keen on entering politics or the clergy. Or becoming a nutritionist for that matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54217967758243200152012-09-14T13:51:33.195+00:002012-09-14T13:51:33.195+00:00@annlee
"Consider the Inuit ... the Masai .....@annlee<br /><br />"Consider the Inuit ... the Masai ... the Buffalo People of the North American Plains ... etc. It's a myth, though a well-traveled one"<br /><br />The real myth is that Inuits, Masai and Great plains Indians didn't eat plant foods. <br /><br />The bison hunting culture of the Great Plains began about 1730 and ended around 1870. <br /><br />Manne (1972) showed that Masai men aged over 40 had severe atherosclerosis.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-31077491382825409832012-09-14T04:51:00.685+00:002012-09-14T04:51:00.685+00:00mnature, you get a prize for possibly being closes...mnature, you get a prize for possibly being closest to the truth, though we'll never find out unless they do eventually publish some weights!!!!<br /><br />Chip Spitter, not really. There is a limit in how much interest I can sustain in anything as stupid as lipidology. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that oxidised sterols are used to signal repair processes which are subsequently labelled as diseases. There are an apparently infinite supply of folks out there willing to blame lipids for everything. I just get tired of the idea...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-75656788204173876732012-09-14T01:32:40.897+00:002012-09-14T01:32:40.897+00:00@ Breckinridge:
Consider the Inuit ... the Masai ...@ Breckinridge:<br /><br />Consider the Inuit ... the Masai ... the Buffalo People of the North American Plains ... etc. It's a myth, though a well-traveled one.annleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666381399321975755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-43657395378240425562012-09-13T16:07:21.412+00:002012-09-13T16:07:21.412+00:00I hope I can ask this question here... I keep he...I hope I can ask this question here... I keep hearing "you need carbs to burn fat" meaning its impossible to use fat as fuel without any sugar. Is this true?Breckenridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16790685497250432204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-19848386411771975122012-09-11T22:27:11.838+00:002012-09-11T22:27:11.838+00:00What you find is that nuts tend to be processed by...What you find is that nuts tend to be processed by heating when eaten in large quantities.<br />For example paleo sites in Britain show signs of mass roasting of hazelnuts. This would have increased shelf life by destroying some long-chain fatty acids, and improved digestibility by breaking down lectins.<br />Here's a classic post by Kurt Harris on the <br /><a href="http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/1/5/guest-post-professor-gumby-essay-001.html" rel="nofollow">Mongongo nut</a><br /><br />"the egg-shaped, velvety fruits ripen and fall between March and May each year" - Wikipedia<br /><br />The nuts are seasonal, so excess of n-6 would not accumulate. It's year round access to the accumulating effect that is dangerous. Much the same probably also applies to fructose - fattening in the windfall season under the combined triggers of linoleic acid and fructose seems highly adaptive to me. Eating them all year long is just messed up.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-80389053361809568292012-09-11T12:28:59.296+00:002012-09-11T12:28:59.296+00:00@blogblog,
I've heard the 15% and 25% numbers...@blogblog,<br /><br />I've heard the 15% and 25% numbers thrown around as optimal a few times, but I've never seen any non-epidemiological support for them. I'd be interested if you had more info to shed on the subject.<br /><br />As a side note, I always wonder how much the refinement of the oils plays into these results. Would we see the same problems if the high O-6 was coming from something like nuts? I seem to recall some African Hunter gatherers who got a large amount of calories from Mongogo nuts (or something like that).Scott Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17221933596021597469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-90199469618892316162012-09-11T02:48:14.519+00:002012-09-11T02:48:14.519+00:00Blogger George Henderson said...
There's ...Blogger George Henderson said...<br /><br /> <i>There's a view that the immune system is just a bunch of stuff cobbled together</i><br /><br />Actually, all of biology is like that - This theme is one of the reasons we know it wasn't designed - it evolved. So we have reuse of things for multiple purposes that want to evolve in different directions at the same time - where an engineer would realize that the radiator cap and oil filler cap need to be separate designs. <br /><br />This, by the way, also predicts that transcribing the genes is the easy part - figuring out how it works is a real mess. karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47545398408095218942012-09-11T00:48:12.539+00:002012-09-11T00:48:12.539+00:00There's a view that the immune system is just ...There's a view that the immune system is just a bunch of stuff cobbled together, not some grand design.<br />This is consistent with the way lipoproteins have been drafted into it.<br />For example, the C3 protein, which is the lynchpin of the complement cascade, is made by a gene that also codes for lipoproteins<br />http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.nz/2009/01/scp-c3-and-lipid-metabolism.htmlPuddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-12054560562611928002012-09-10T19:01:37.381+00:002012-09-10T19:01:37.381+00:00@Chip Spitter
It is probably a bit more complicat...@Chip Spitter<br /><br />It is probably a bit more complicated - I keep explaining to people that the lipoproteins appear to be part of the innate immune system and CAD in most people is likely a type of autoimmune disease.<br /><br />Lp(a) is part of this system - it didn't evolve to cause CAD. There is a normal range that Lp(a) is in and too low may be a sign of a lack of a compromised immune system. Yet, consistent high levels ( Like mine was - 3x past the upper bound ) is pointing to some kind of systemic inflammation. <br /><br />It is well known that infections, surgery can cause a temporary high Lp(a). <br /><br />So is it that diets high in fructose and O-6 end up breaking our immune and insulin systems? <br /><br />As per https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/expanim/61/4/61_461/_pdf <i>Characteristics of himalayan marmots and their response to an atherogenic diet.</i><br /><br />One group (4 males and 4 females) was fed HFCD, which contained 0.3% cholesterol, 6.7% lard, and 3.3% corn oil per weight in standard chow diet.<br /><br />But the contents of the standard chow goes unlisted. My understanding is they are mostly herbivores but will eat a bit of bugs and meat if it comes their way. We don't know what the source of carbs was in this study.karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-16933522649931059342012-09-10T06:56:34.143+00:002012-09-10T06:56:34.143+00:00Hello Peter,
I had been trawling through your L...Hello Peter, <br /><br />I had been trawling through your Lp(a) posts from years past and subsequently searched for any new studies on pubmed. It seems there is still uncertainty as to Lp(a)’s ultimate role but a couple of studies caught my eye. One that supposedly showed a relationship between low levels of Lp(a) and an increase in all cause mortality. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22485129 <br /><br />The message I got from this was: Low Lp(a) = bad. As you had eluded to a couple of years ago. <br /><br />Another here - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850646 suggests that marmots are considered good test subjects for studying Lp(a) these days. The poor buggers were fed an “atherogenic diet” of lard and corn oil. Why they bothered with lard is anyone’s guess, and the details on the diet were almost non-existent, but I guess you could speculate that corn oil makes the poor marmots Lp(a) shoot to the moon. Or it could have been the lard. I had to scratch my head as to the purpose of this one, other than deciding whether marmots were suitable test subjects. <br /><br />Lastly, in your 7 Feb 2010 post you succinctly wrote of Lp(a): "It preferentially accumulates oxidised lipids and binds them in a form where they cannot be immediately excreted from the plasma. It also puts a great big sticky label on them that allows them to firmly bind to damaged tissue."<br /><br />Is there anything you've seen since that would suggest why?<br /><br />Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-11084697241385814132012-09-08T11:51:08.031+00:002012-09-08T11:51:08.031+00:00Both mice actually weight the same. The one on th...Both mice actually weight the same. The one on the left got out of the cage, and was run over by a laboratory cart, so it is just a little squished out.mnaturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430938813839623241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-40594769775113392612012-09-07T22:53:51.229+00:002012-09-07T22:53:51.229+00:00@ blog blog,
the take home lesson from this discus...@ blog blog,<br />the take home lesson from this discussion for me has been that seed oils are more potently disruptive of fat storage than they've generally been given credit for. <br />The Pacific Islands model has its limitations, but it does give us many populations without diseases of civilization until quite recently.<br />We don't have to hypothesize about Paleolithic vs Neolithic, the facts are on record, and the pre-European diet isn't complicated by any of the Neolithic Agents of Disease.<br />The Kitavan story seems to show that smoking on island diets doesn't cause obesity or diabetes. <br />Diseases of civilization are not restricted to poorer or lower-status members of these communities, but increased pathology among the poor does match the greater reliance on cheaper foods.<br />And you know what foods those are.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-9225122085771490382012-09-06T10:52:37.945+00:002012-09-06T10:52:37.945+00:00@O Numnos,
the healthiest body fat level is aroun...@O Numnos,<br /><br />the healthiest body fat level is around 15% for men and 25% for women. There is no benefit (and usually health problems) being leaner.<br /><br />There are very few low-carb hunter-gather societies. Hunter-gatherers are slender not highly muscled like bodybuilders<br />blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-61214356312723424502012-09-06T10:02:05.007+00:002012-09-06T10:02:05.007+00:00@EJE
Just read your last post on the previous thr...@EJE<br /><br />Just read your last post on the previous thread with great interest as much of what you wrote chimed with a recent experience of my own, although not releated to "sweet-spot" carb consumption.<br /><br />In order to lose "that last few lbs of body fat" I had been drifting from a CKD through hard-core VLC to what I now (but not at the time) know would be termed a Protein Sparing Modified Fast as described by Lyle McDonald and others. Initially I was doing this PSMF in a 2 day on/1 off cycle. After about 3-4 weeks I developed a host of symptoms some physical some emmotional/psychological the severity of which waxed and waned - at the most extreme I honestly thought I was having some kind of breakdown. I noticed that the symptoms got worse if I consumed any alcohol which lead me to reactive hypoglycemia - the symptoms by now had continued for several weeks, after considering virus/detox symptoms as increasingly unlikely I finally came across Lyle's description of the PSMF and realized that at 90g/day I was not getting enough protein to cover gluconeogenesis. I added one tin of tuna/day and bingo the symptoms vanished in 2 days.<br /><br />Of course I was hypocaloric and active so drinking additional water and you are correct about Sodium - I have to purposely add more than looks good for me or I get dizzy spells/severe orthostatic hypotension.<br /><br />The really weird thing is the persistence of the symptoms, if I'd gone on a pure water fast I'd have felt like crap for 2-3 days then come out the other side feeling OK - whilst having my muscle catabolised presumably - why this apparently didn't happen is slightly puzzling (and illustrates the potential pitfalls of extreme diets).SS Bikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00678581205592336725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-67073192059286184602012-09-05T10:37:44.693+00:002012-09-05T10:37:44.693+00:00@George,
there are hundreds of possible variables ...@George,<br />there are hundreds of possible variables beyond cereals to explain the poor health of modern Polynesians eg alcohol, low social status, lack of physical activity, dairy foods, changed gut microbiota etc etc.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-25640061579753502742012-09-05T07:32:06.299+00:002012-09-05T07:32:06.299+00:00Karl,
the durian must be the most overrated "...Karl,<br /><br />the durian must be the most overrated "food" on the planet. It tastes like burnt onions, has he texture of runny custard and smells like dirty socks. blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-12562240066869464402012-09-04T19:34:58.687+00:002012-09-04T19:34:58.687+00:00pacific island food always makes me think of duria...pacific island food always makes me think of durian. I never thought I would end up liking it - it has a very strong sulphur smell - like the scent in natural gas. Sadly, I now avoid it as it is a really high carbohydrate food. <br /><br />http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2520?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&sort=&qlookup=durian&offset=&format=Full&new=1<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian<br /><br />karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24871065001049020222012-09-04T06:28:13.241+00:002012-09-04T06:28:13.241+00:00True. The early Maori had dogs and Moas too, later...True. The early Maori had dogs and Moas too, later had chicken-sized flightless birds like the weka to eat - and some hunted seals and whales. But there were not the trade routes everywhere, many populations were effectively isolated. New Caledonia seems to be the limit of melanesian trade. If the islands had sugar cane, then we are looking at n-6 and cereals as agents of disease.<br />But then, why the modern incidence of gout?<br />The island banana is cooked green as a starch (I have some in the pot with my lamb & pork cassarole right now).<br />You can be sure I'll do more digging on this. <br />Where did you get the data from?Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-83207931266788495692012-09-04T05:49:04.655+00:002012-09-04T05:49:04.655+00:00The Polynesians and Melanesians traveled and trade...The Polynesians and Melanesians traveled and traded over the entire Pacific for thousands of years. They had access to a vast array of foods including pigs, dogs, chickens, coconuts, bananas, sago, tapioca, breadfruit and sugarcane etc). <br /><br />The Maori were isolated from the rest of Polynesia for over 500 years. The only traditional Polynesian food eaten by the Maori was sweet potato. <br /><br />In other words the Maori (including Cook islanders) were completely atypical of the Pacific Islands with regard to diet.blogbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029519906193388609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-1479003332954650312012-09-04T00:10:02.316+00:002012-09-04T00:10:02.316+00:00I recommend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hor...I recommend:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Horrid_PracticePuddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-86677883256656102982012-09-03T21:44:20.745+00:002012-09-03T21:44:20.745+00:00Human, it's what's for dinner! Might be k...Human, it's what's for dinner! Might be kinda hard to source it though. I think I'll stick with pork. ;-P Think about it though when you say 'turn to cannibalism.' That's mostly a cultural thing. In some cultures, it's just another meat source that is not bad tasting or even it is considered a source of spiritual power or sharing of the soul. One tribe even eats their own dead relatives as a way for those people to kind of live on. (remember the story of Kuru) If such is the belief system, starvation is not needed to 'turn to' cannibalism, although I am sure starvation can often have a heavy hand in any decision making process as well! ;-P Evahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18224463305848437035noreply@blogger.com