tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post3366937336057008567..comments2024-03-29T06:45:45.894+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Protons (67) a formula revised for butter oilPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-9245242084761267392023-04-11T20:09:31.529+00:002023-04-11T20:09:31.529+00:00Some more thoughts on short-chain fats:
"Thu...Some more thoughts on short-chain fats:<br /><br />"Thus, while the north Indian dietary fats are saturated, these have a preponderance of short-chain (C4-C6) fatty acid, triglycerides, whereas the south Indian seed oils are unsaturated but have a preponderance of long-chain fatty acid triglycerides (C18 :) such as oleic acid (Malhotra, 1967a, c, d). Sarles (1965) has shown that the degree of saturation of triglyceride fats did not affect gall bladder contraction: long-chain, liquid triglycerides produced better contraction than short; for example, oleic acid gave a marked contraction but butyric acid gave poor contractions. In otherwords, the short-chain dietary fats of the north Indians will lead to biliary stasis whereas the long-chain dietary fats of the south Indians will have the opposite effect."<br /><br /><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1552592/" rel="nofollow">"Epidemiological study of cholelithiasis among railroad workers in India with special reference to causation."</a><br /><br />I've come across this difference in fats a few times. Clearly the SC fats are processed differently in a variety of ways...<br /><br />Of note, the incidence of gallstones is the inverse of CVD in these populations.Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-20882186846161237532022-01-09T14:00:17.925+00:002022-01-09T14:00:17.925+00:00Hi Peter,
Thats a very great post that also someho...Hi Peter,<br />Thats a very great post that also somehow induced the following thought in me...<br /><br />its often said, that insulinsensitivity is reduced late in the evening/night (usually argued via higher post prandial blood sugar levels).<br /><br />If this is correct,<br />1. do you think its rather the adipose which is insulin resistant or the lean tissue?<br />2. do you think it might be more slimmming to eat later in the evening compared to during the day?<br /><br />Im really looking forward to your opinion.Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00760752656567459659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-63179441507907020732021-12-16T21:37:55.193+00:002021-12-16T21:37:55.193+00:00Maybe before trying diet experiments on lab animal...Maybe before trying diet experiments on lab animals it would be useful to test the ingredient mix on humans (eg lab techs?, Scientists?) who can communicate their subjective experiences more accurately? <br /><br />Subject to ethics approval of course! Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-40682056323507767222021-12-16T21:28:54.007+00:002021-12-16T21:28:54.007+00:00Peter, did you say a while back that it's diff...Peter, did you say a while back that it's difficult to get rats into a ketogenic state?Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-1632621317184861262021-12-16T21:27:58.764+00:002021-12-16T21:27:58.764+00:00Tucker, that's a bit weird. It raises the defi...Tucker, that's a bit weird. It raises the definitional question of what do you mean by ketosis exactly, since you still have all the carbs swishing around, going places, maybe mostly by concentration grafients. Insulin is ... where, what, how? <br /><br />IRC that ketones inhibit fat burning too. <br /><br />Perhaps it would be more interesting to be exploring the behavioural consequences of uninhibited fat burning, which is incidentally what I would usually think of as ketosis? But I can see the relevance of testing ketones as nutritional, possibly prophylactic supplements. <br /><br />Also I remember the effect of cosuming distilled low weight sfa from coconut oil, quite a bad hypo episode plus a case of the munchies. I wouldn't have been paying much attention to novel stimuli either!Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-42617960618706773942021-12-16T15:47:12.063+00:002021-12-16T15:47:12.063+00:00@raphi
I commented the other day on how lab econo...@raphi<br /><br />I commented the other day on how lab economics drive animal models to non-physiological states that may not correspond well to humans. LOL. Thanks for the demonstration!Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-82580990392026130892021-12-16T14:51:40.195+00:002021-12-16T14:51:40.195+00:00@tucker
non-physiological is the right way to put...@tucker<br /><br />non-physiological is the right way to put it. I got the ketone ester diet for free from Donna Herber (worth $5k!) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31918761/raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-63597704687643647252021-12-16T14:38:45.618+00:002021-12-16T14:38:45.618+00:00I don't think it's possible forthe carbs t...I don't think it's possible forthe carbs to kick them out of ketosis with a ketone ester.<br /><br />That's then problem, it's a completely non-physiological diet.<br /><br />But curious to see the results... Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-22641972841047903612021-12-16T07:23:55.930+00:002021-12-16T07:23:55.930+00:00@tucker
There was 630 kcals of soybean oil out of...@tucker<br /><br />There was 630 kcals of soybean oil out of 3,765 kcals total (for 1 kg) so that 16.7% soybean by kcals - dreadful indeed! I'm less worried about the carbs kicking them out of ketosis as 30% monoester by kcals is pretty powerful. But when I run their blood samples I'll be able to tell you how ketogenic the diet actually was - I'm betting > 1 mmol/L, but we shall see!raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-31819317284733077342021-12-16T07:18:51.110+00:002021-12-16T07:18:51.110+00:00@Malcolm,
I did the novel object recognition (NOR...@Malcolm,<br /><br />I did the novel object recognition (NOR) test over 1 hour and 24 hours which is looking at memory/cognition over those time periods. I also did the social (SN) test.<br /><br />- only my WT saline rats were paid normal/greater amounts of attention to the novel object in the 1 hour NOR test (the rest were uninterested in the novel object, which shouldn't be the case)<br />- both WT saline and WT aripiprazole rats did better than WT olanzapine rats on the 24 hours NOR test<br />- 11.24% of variation in my results are attributable to the 'drug x model' interaction<br />- 7.19% of variation in my results are attributable to the drug alone<br /><br />overall my results are inconclusive. either I because<br />- I did something wrong<br />- the tests aren't precise enough to show meaningful differences<br />- the drugs suck<br />- the rodent model sucks<br />- a combination of all/some of the above<br /><br />what's certain is that my PhD supervisor who's a prescribing psychiatrist in a hospital was not happy with the drugs looking not that usefulraphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-87197188240173892482021-12-16T05:47:30.793+00:002021-12-16T05:47:30.793+00:00raphi ditto!
Peterraphi ditto!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-59782566622146893392021-12-16T05:44:31.797+00:002021-12-16T05:44:31.797+00:00Tucker and WilliamS,
Thinking about this lots.
P...Tucker and WilliamS,<br /><br />Thinking about this lots.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-13025132161643892222021-12-15T18:15:00.050+00:002021-12-15T18:15:00.050+00:00High deuterium hide cvirus in the bodyfat!
https:...High deuterium hide cvirus in the bodyfat! <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcUtDaIzmowKajushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750298925760439779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-74836679805908389692021-12-14T16:16:28.699+00:002021-12-14T16:16:28.699+00:00That's a fairly dreadful keto diet! Starch + k...That's a fairly dreadful keto diet! Starch + ketones? Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-17047804027772314552021-12-14T11:29:13.797+00:002021-12-14T11:29:13.797+00:00Did you test the schizo symptoms? (how?!)Did you test the schizo symptoms? (how?!)Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17860663722560067324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37665189655749462562021-12-14T09:36:00.766+00:002021-12-14T09:36:00.766+00:00@Peter and @Tucker,
2 years ago I made Wistar rod...@Peter and @Tucker,<br /><br />2 years ago I made Wistar rodent model of schizophrenia by injecting the pregnant dams with methylazoxymethanol acetate. I fed those offspring and WT Wistar rats a ketogenic diet (Dyet 104425; AIN-93G purified rodent diet with 30% ketone ester by calorie) or a low-fat control diet ad lib for 5 weeks.<br /><br />This is what the weights of the males looked like: https://mega.nz/file/3kgyTJBR#hnYJ0UmW6pIDDwfaGy7966TjReSE4wu00vY5Q96h6W4<br />This is what the weights of the females looked like: https://mega.nz/file/Gh5i2J4a#HchlBhz2nr-24tqrEoNQ5mAZxRP51xcXxi8owuJd-Yg<br />This is composition of the ketogenic diet: https://mega.nz/file/ThRG0bSb#ScqSb9T4mmajWl-dNMVe6GeUgppYoSTBcBqS8g9FU3k<br />This is composition of the low-fat chow: https://mega.nz/file/Sk5iEbZI#Spc5ux9a4C0NQj4d-7RrMkh3j1xxuHd-TSfa_yeFrA8<br /><br />The ketogenic rats tended to weigh less. And no, I don't know what their body composition was like unfortunatelyraphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66830865420400523352021-12-13T20:08:33.957+00:002021-12-13T20:08:33.957+00:00@WilliamS "...but evidence contradicting hypo...@WilliamS "...but evidence contradicting hypotheses should get all of our attention."<br /><br />Amen.Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-7259072579532186882021-12-13T19:30:08.886+00:002021-12-13T19:30:08.886+00:00Since the short chain fatty acids are such a small...Since the short chain fatty acids are such a small percentage of the overall fatty acid content I wonder if, as a whole, butterfat is still pretty good from the protons perspective.<br /><br />Anecdote. I was quite lean before Covid hit in my area (longtime low carb/paleo eater). I always ate out very frequently. (A man needs his vices.) When society got shut down restaurant food consumption dropped dramatically. As compensation I added half a pint of full fat Rebel Creamery ice cream to my daily routine. At home we cook with butter and ghee and I eat quite a bit of full fat cheese as well. So a lot of dairy fat, along with plenty of ruminant fat.<br /><br />With no effort whatsoever I lost about six pounds and nearly another pants size during the siege. When society gradually reopened here, and I ate out more and more, the weight crept back on. Then I renovated my kitchen and went to 100% restaurant food for a month. Even more weight came back, and more quickly.<br /><br />More recently, as an experiment I voluntarily cut back quite a lot on the restaurant food again, retaining the Rebel Creamery compensation. Like clockwork the weight began to decline again and continues to do so. I’m almost back to where I was at the height of the siege.<br /><br />My guess is that the main factor here is some combination of zero seed oil and generous saturated fat with home cooking, but the unavoidable seed oils and fewer saturates in restaurants. Not sure what else could explain this pattern. Carbs remained about the same. In fact the most recent period of weight loss coincided with adding back in sweet potato, with copious butter, which had no discernible negative effect.<br /><br />So, for me at least, lots and lots of dairy fat seems to have been slimming even with little body fat to lose. Hence my question about the overall effect of butterfat from a protons perspective.<br /><br />Still those butter oil mouse experiments do need to be explained. I know it’s out of fashion these days, but evidence contradicting hypotheses should get all of our attention.<br /><br />WilliamShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09021312909928686165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-60998366233223890172021-12-13T10:58:13.328+00:002021-12-13T10:58:13.328+00:00What is the F:N ratio for butter as a food, i.e. c...What is the F:N ratio for butter as a food, i.e. considering all of its constituent fatty acids, both short and long chain?WilliamShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09021312909928686165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-27099245129547291882021-12-12T21:28:37.743+00:002021-12-12T21:28:37.743+00:00Yes, until whatever genetic defect triggers excess...Yes, until whatever genetic defect triggers excess fat storage actually messes with your own (possibly not obesity related) research, no one is going to work out what is wrong with a given strain to make it obesity prone/resistant...<br /><br />Though I wonder if this has been looked at as a drug target opportunity? Dunno.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-60767142065711236132021-12-12T21:11:05.541+00:002021-12-12T21:11:05.541+00:00"Rats are used in DIO studies (Table 2). Spra..."Rats are used in DIO studies (Table 2). Sprague–Dawley rats are considered a good model for inducing obesity through diet, since they have a behavior similar to humans with regard to excessive food consumption, which can cause weight gain and changes in lipid metabolism [22]; however, Wistar rats are more susceptible to the development of obesity through diet, since they usually consume a higher amount of high-fat diet than the Sprague–Dawley. Also, differences in lipid metabolism, as fatty acid uptake and lipogenesis, as well as the interaction between genes and diet, make Wistar rats more susceptible to DIO [19]."<br /><br /><a href="https://dmsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13098-021-00647-2" rel="nofollow">“Diet-induced obesity in animal models: points to consider and influence on metabolic markers”</a><br /><br />I don't know the answer, but lab economics takes precedence over model validity. Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-70610924635619039162021-12-12T21:04:31.632+00:002021-12-12T21:04:31.632+00:00Tucker, I have many thoughts and some I write down...Tucker, I have many thoughts and some I write down and some I don't. I have wondered for quite some time whether the failure to assemble ETC super complexes by Bl/6 mice results in less, rather than more, ROS for a given input to the ETC of an ATP replete cell. This would be the equivalent of feeding a low F:N PUFA when you are actually oxidising a high F:N saturate. However butter (usually with sucrose) seems pretty fattening in Wistar rats too which, as far as I know, have normal functional SAPs...<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54525086508066003392021-12-12T17:11:56.941+00:002021-12-12T17:11:56.941+00:00We need to remember, these C57BL/6 mice, despite b...We need to remember, these C57BL/6 mice, despite being advertised as "wild-type" are not. They are selected to be susceptible to obesity. <br /><br />"But because it uses the broken C57Bl/6 as an example of defective respiration it does bring home how irrelevant this particular mouse might be to more humans with a more normal metabolism."<br /><br /><a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2017/03/that-poor-old-c57bl6-mouse.html" rel="nofollow">http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2017/03/that-poor-old-c57bl6-mouse.html<\ahref="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2017/03/that-poor-old-c57bl6-mouse.html">http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2017/03/that-poor-old-c57bl6-mouse.html</a>Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-4982057261474983292021-12-12T11:28:44.670+00:002021-12-12T11:28:44.670+00:00That is very close to what I once suggested as a n...That is very close to what I once suggested as a nougat diet. Just change the protein to egg white and add a few nuts.<br /><br />I also still think that such a high portion of energy as fructose via the sucrose, combined with fat plus glucose from both sugar and starch, is innately fattening. I think any significant carb intake on a high fat diet is going to be dangerous s.t. if you can't cut the carbs then drop the fats. What concerns me more is where does all the circulating glucose end up that isn't being forced into adipocytes?<br /><br />A: Eyes, ears, kidneys, joints, endothelium, RBC, AGEs, etc It oozes out however and wherever it can. Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66565060122726249572021-12-12T11:08:32.859+00:002021-12-12T11:08:32.859+00:00Well, dang!Well, dang!BigWhiskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08420444056304643922noreply@blogger.com