tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post5366213745414254526..comments2024-03-29T06:45:45.894+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Endotoxin Absorption on a High Fat DietPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-23779862993438967602017-11-22T07:02:45.027+00:002017-11-22T07:02:45.027+00:00Hi cave,
"The fact still remains that it...Hi cave, <br /><br />"The fact still remains that it's 2 to 4 hour post-meal TG's that correlate with RR for CHD, not fasting TG's."<br /><br />I'm not sure this is true. Ivor has posted some nice studies comparing fasting TGs to fasting LDLc and fasting TGs do correlate well with CV risk. Obviously LDLc doesn't.<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-70303283165111598482017-11-21T15:16:30.248+00:002017-11-21T15:16:30.248+00:00"The fact still remains that it's 2 to 4 ..."The fact still remains that it's 2 to 4 hour post-meal TG's that correlate with RR for CHD, not fasting TG's."<br /><br />If RR stands for relative risk, my understanding is that that's usually statistical manipulation to make an effect seem larger. What's the absolute risk?<br /><br />Probably nobody will see this since this conversation is over three years old :)cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-14585291088707501722014-06-16T14:41:23.508+00:002014-06-16T14:41:23.508+00:00Thank you JS, very nice. Won't change Nigel bu...Thank you JS, very nice. Won't change Nigel but comments such as yours are a gift to interested bystanders.Purposelessnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310957056111105419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-90484567385114902852014-06-16T06:29:46.565+00:002014-06-16T06:29:46.565+00:00@JS
Thanks! That was just the link to end a fruit...@JS<br /><br />Thanks! That was just the link to end a fruitless back n' forth.<br /><br />PS: did you follow Guyenet's response to your interpretation of satiation/satiety/hunger/motivation/reward in terms of Berridge's work?<br />I think it hit a nerve, seeing as how he went all "credentials" & "ad hominem" up in this b*tch. It's funny to see people scramble when they realise 'their' references may reveal another story. I think this is where you see the science sausage get made.<br /><br />PS2: When are you posting again?raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-48341746280764797902014-06-15T19:04:53.684+00:002014-06-15T19:04:53.684+00:00Nigel, I am going to post a link to the Cardiochek...Nigel, I am going to post a link to the Cardiochek portable blood test machine, you can buy it on Amazon, it's quite reasonable. If you buy the strips, make sure they are not out of date, they expire. Test yourself, report back. We are all N=1. If you clear triglycerides from carbs, that's just you.<br /><br />I know I clear fat quickly, but carbs elevate my triglycerides. Same for my husband. We are both insulin resistant. That's just us.<br />http://www.amazon.com/CardioChek-Portable-Blood-Test-System/dp/B000BN9HR8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402858728&sr=8-2&keywords=cardiochek Ilaine Uptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184690720703307375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-22518736807607020422014-06-15T18:55:40.047+00:002014-06-15T18:55:40.047+00:00Nigel, if you have a link to the cause of death fo...Nigel, if you have a link to the cause of death for Dr. Su, please post it. I looked for it and never found it.Ilaine Uptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184690720703307375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-81519051914790744332014-06-15T18:31:10.454+00:002014-06-15T18:31:10.454+00:00All:
It's unfortunate that Nigel is still ban...All:<br /><br />It's unfortunate that Nigel is still banging on about post-prandial TG (via Bansal et.al.) when the following has been clearly explained to him, <i>over two years ago:</i><br /><br />1. Post-prandial TG/TAG doesn’t co-vary with HDL<br />2. Why that’s not important <br />3. Why fasting TG is important even though it tends to co-vary inversely with HDL.<br /><br />To that we can add the elementary statistical truth that "adjusting" for a strong covariate can get you any result you want.<br /><br />See <a href="http://freetheanimal.com/2012/05/contrast-squeaking-pips-vs-value-producers-and-promoters.html#comment-143990" rel="nofollow">this link for the conclusion.</a> (Scroll up if you wish to see the humorous context, in which Nigel flies into an incoherent rage…and has since apparently doubled down on his basic errors, on the theory that if you repeat something often enough it becomes true.)<br /><br />JSJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12404600032389835653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24963364781173446772014-06-15T13:30:38.378+00:002014-06-15T13:30:38.378+00:00the diet is our health are two side of a single pi...the diet is our health are two side of a single piece FreeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04011606369266562389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-75354399966366096602014-06-15T07:02:40.394+00:002014-06-15T07:02:40.394+00:00Oh dear Nigel. LCHF does not guarantee eternal lif...Oh dear Nigel. LCHF does not guarantee eternal life. Nothing does and nothing ever will. <br /><br />Yet, according to anecdotal evidence, even a medic here doing autopsies (long time ago, of course) had a clear vision claim what keeps arteries clean. He praised cream.<br /><br />And, in addition to Peter's mitochondrial musings, epidemiological studies like Interheart and my personal experiences, quite a bit of practical evidence (for more than a decade in our LC community) gives only more and more ground for such a vision. <br /><br />I seem to be the only one in my kin without medication at this age. And it feels good to wake up morning after morning, feeling well and refreshed. I'm not expected to live as long as Barry Groves did, but should I do that and then die of a gentle heart attack (instead of the wasting diseases seen in the family)... it would be a gift indeed.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />LeenaSLeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02068331185278930853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-47115425620062543592014-06-15T04:07:23.722+00:002014-06-15T04:07:23.722+00:00There are many things that influence atheroscleros...There are many things that influence atherosclerosis independently of diet. Air pollution, smoking (Barry Groves seems to have been a tobacco sceptic), heavy metals. And stress. For some people, being a contrarian pioneer is probably quite stressful. <br />There is an interesting bit in Samuel Elliot Morison's History of U.S. Naval Operations in World War 2, volume 14 (but read the whole thing, seriously the best history book ever) where he sums up Dragnet-style the post war careers of his heroes.<br />Most of the carrier admirals die a few years after the war of CVD-type ailments without getting to enjoy retirement. Few jobs would be as stressful as carrier admiral in a wartime navy. <br />It's possible to be sceptical or gullible about things other than the essentiality of carbohydrate or the harms of saturated fats, and some of that scepticism or gullibility might always be misplaced. Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36318354343091292902014-06-14T22:27:09.721+00:002014-06-14T22:27:09.721+00:00LeenaS said...
"You were calling Apo B-48'...LeenaS said...<br />"You were calling Apo B-48's in chylos as a problem. As far as I know, these were not taken into the Apo count in Interheart. I see no problem in them."<br />If Apo-B48 or TG's weren't measured postprandially, there's no data on postprandial TG's in that trial. Absence of evidence =/= Evidence of absence. Therefore, that trial is irrelevant to my assertion. I understand that you see no problem in them. Have you read my blog post <a href="http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/ultra-high-fat-80-diets-good-bad-and.html" rel="nofollow"><b>Ultra-high-fat (~80%) diets: The good, the bad and the ugly</b></a>? There's evidence there to support my assertion that there <b>is</b> a problem.<br /><br />LC/VLC diets don't guarantee freedom from atherosclerosis & CHD. What about Barry Groves, Robert Su and Seth Roberts?Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-46893423507751803132014-06-14T18:03:18.158+00:002014-06-14T18:03:18.158+00:00You were calling Apo B-48's in chylos as a pro...You were calling Apo B-48's in chylos as a problem. As far as I know, these were not taken into the Apo count in Interheart. I see no problem in them.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02068331185278930853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24132400851307118572014-06-14T17:39:11.621+00:002014-06-14T17:39:11.621+00:00I found the Lancet study Effect of potentially mod...I found the Lancet study <a href="http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2804%2917018-9/fulltext" rel="nofollow"><b>Effect of potentially modifiable risk factors associated with myocardial infarction in 52 countries (the INTERHEART study): case-control study</b></a>. I still don't see how that contradicts what I wrote. Please explain.Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-82804677514808830212014-06-14T17:29:16.500+00:002014-06-14T17:29:16.500+00:00LeenaS said...
"Nigel, I think that you KNOW ...LeenaS said...<br />"Nigel, I think that you KNOW that in the INTERHEART study they monitored Apo-B100 only, without Apo-B48s?"<br />All I can find is <a href="http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/489738" rel="nofollow"><b>INTERHEART: A Global Case-Control Study of Risk Factors for Acute Myocardial Infarction</b></a>. How does this contradict what I'm saying?Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-85181515058109587862014-06-14T17:23:22.243+00:002014-06-14T17:23:22.243+00:00Ilaine Upton said...
"Nigel, yes, you have ha...Ilaine Upton said...<br />"Nigel, yes, you have have stenosis even with a zero or low calcium score. But it's not likely."<br />The younger the subject, the less calcification there is. The higher the vitamin K2 intake, the less calcification there is.Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-16835528521344183392014-06-14T17:20:44.639+00:002014-06-14T17:20:44.639+00:00Ilaine Upton said...
"Nigel, man, it's ve...Ilaine Upton said...<br />"Nigel, man, it's very easy to prove that restricting carbohydrates lowers your triglycerides ALL the time. Just get a meter and test it for yourself."<br />If that's the case, would you like to explain the OFTT (40g of fat as cream) results in <a href="http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/3/505/F3.expansion.html" rel="nofollow"><b>Figure 3B</b></a>? Fig. 3A shows that an OGTT (100g of glucose) makes no significant different to plasma TG's over a 6 hour period.<br />Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36553050385265326472014-06-14T17:03:35.135+00:002014-06-14T17:03:35.135+00:00Nigel, yes, you have have stenosis even with a zer...Nigel, yes, you have have stenosis even with a zero or low calcium score. But it's not likely. Calcium scoring is easy, fast, and cheap, but most important, very low radiation.<br /><br />Testing for stenosis in the absence of symptoms doesn't make sense, really, because it's a massive dose of radiation, and for what?<br /><br />Calcium scanning is statistically an excellent proxy, as is CIMT, which is zero radiation. Also fast, easy and cheap.Ilaine Uptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184690720703307375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-33013655551420093162014-06-14T16:56:01.720+00:002014-06-14T16:56:01.720+00:00Nigel, man, it's very easy to prove that restr...Nigel, man, it's very easy to prove that restricting carbohydrates lowers your triglycerides ALL the time. Just get a meter and test it for yourself.Ilaine Uptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184690720703307375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-24386478626756751542014-06-14T15:41:27.640+00:002014-06-14T15:41:27.640+00:00@ Nigel
1) hhhmm…OK?
2) Yes, I saw your mechanis...@ Nigel<br /><br />1) hhhmm…OK?<br /><br />2) Yes, I saw your mechanism & understand the rationale.<br />However, if one follows through without a double-standard it becomes apparent that the best way to control unwanted TG excursions (fasting, pre or post-prandial) remains carbohydrate moderation in modern populations. Your statements regarding fat bolus’ disregard this.<br />Yes - there is significant variance in the necessary levels of carbohydrate restriction. Apparently biology doesn’t care for neat theories!<br /><br />Your mechanism also ignores the different ‘milieu’ in which those TGs circulate. Again, modern populations on higher-carb diets tend to display worse inflammatory profiles & higher BG levels than those on HF diets (on average). I don’t see how one can discount these important variables without being led into tons of paradoxes, contradictions & half-truths…raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-74560531152045408602014-06-14T15:28:35.593+00:002014-06-14T15:28:35.593+00:00Nigel, I think that you KNOW that in the INTERHEAR...Nigel, I think that you KNOW that in the INTERHEART study they monitored Apo-B100 only, without Apo-B48s? <br /><br />If not, maybe you should get into that Lancet 2004 paper again? But then again, lipophobes do not really like that kind of stuff. They should, since it was actually a follow-up of The MONICA which was a follow-up of The North Carelian Project, which was a success to the lipid paradigm. Too bad none of the other sutdies (better controlled, larger and definitely without the elaidic acid transfat of the sixties; and oh yes, we had plenty of those at the time although you have to dig a bit to find it...) could never repeat the results, in spite of much clever trying...<br /><br />Cheers,<br />LeenaSLeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02068331185278930853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-29071841421946449942014-06-14T14:42:23.820+00:002014-06-14T14:42:23.820+00:00raphi said...
"@Nigel Kinbrum,
1) Thus, steno...raphi said...<br />"@Nigel Kinbrum,<br />1) Thus, stenosis being possible despite a 'great CAC score' shouldn't surprise the breaches off you!"<br />I mentioned it in case people were unaware of that fact.<br /><br />"2) How does this support (or oppose) your argument that fats are the bigger evil when it come to post-prandial circulating TGs?"<br />I gave a mechanism above. Did you see it? Dietary fats are carried in chylo's. More fats = more chylo' particles = more remnants = more ox-remnants = more atherogenesis.Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-35223211436260685432014-06-14T14:35:18.910+00:002014-06-14T14:35:18.910+00:00Peter said...
""And finally, folks...&qu...Peter said...<br />""And finally, folks..."<br /><br />Phew, is that a promise?<br /><br />Peter"<br />That was for last night! <br /><br />Have you had LDL-P or CIMT tests done?<br />Nigel Kinbrumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-19158143174647049172014-06-14T10:15:39.482+00:002014-06-14T10:15:39.482+00:00I thought this was an interesting data point:
Rec...I thought this was an interesting data point:<br /><br />Recently, I saw my apoB numbers come down slightly concomitant to an increase in oxLDL, from a previous lab test indicating higher apoB & lower oxLDL levels.<br /><br />If one believes that > apoB MUST = > oxLDL levels then, either; my testing messed up; i'm an alien; or our current understanding fails to explain such apparent contradictions (hence, back to the drawing board).<br /><br />Seems to me like banking on oxLDL & apoB levels as < is always better, is quite short cited. Context context context...raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-57374922479192965462014-06-14T10:07:43.545+00:002014-06-14T10:07:43.545+00:00You'd probably die if you had zero oxLDL, and ...You'd probably die if you had zero oxLDL, and you'll live longer if you can run a CAC score when you need to. Nothing is wasted; like LPS, unavoidable hazards serve a purpose. <br />On the other hand, a lot of diseases are out of control repair jobs. Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-37260675664008286092014-06-14T08:23:02.784+00:002014-06-14T08:23:02.784+00:00@Nigel Kinbrum,
1) 'mis-placed calcium' c...@Nigel Kinbrum,<br /><br />1) 'mis-placed calcium' certainly plays a role in CVD disease but taking that to mean it is a cornerstone of stenosis ignores how bad we still are at predicting CVD outcomes based on tissue assessment (whether through scans or biopsies). Thus, stenosis being possible despite a 'great CAC score' shouldn't surprise the breaches off you!<br /><br />2) How does this support (or oppose) your argument that fats are the bigger evil when it come to post-prandial circulating TGs? If anything, it suggests that CVD outcomes aren't as closely causally tied to 'conventional' markers (CAC & cholesterol) as many have argued...in vain. ---> the hint here is to look at cellular metabolism in addition to endocrine patterns.raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.com