tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post8094714285094308828..comments2024-03-27T22:57:00.742+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Ketogenic diets are unhelpful and dangerous for managing mitochondrial diseases. Maybe (2)Peterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-44743604259192628102019-11-18T23:22:17.345+00:002019-11-18T23:22:17.345+00:00@karl, @puddleg
"Thanks to Peter's lesso...@karl, @puddleg<br /><br />"Thanks to Peter's lessons, I now know to look at the culture medium." Follow the DMEM! I mean, I knew to look at in vitro experiments with a grain of salt anyway, but once Peter put up that post about Dulbecco's modified Eagle's medium, in vitro deserves even more of an askance glance. Apparently the stuff comes in both high-glucose and low-glucose versions, but still.<br /><br />As for EFAs, speaking from the perspective of someone who struggles to understand the ins and outs of the subject, I've decided that simply sticking to real food, or as close to it as we can get it in today's world, will probably be just fine in terms of evolutionarily appropriate ratios. It just doesn't make sense to have to measure and calculate every bit of food one puts in one's mouth. I try to let evolution be my guide. Even so — "Be very careful about what you believe" seems to be pretty good advice.cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-53979663430429838332019-11-18T00:54:17.167+00:002019-11-18T00:54:17.167+00:00@ Puddleg
After looking at that paper, I feel like...@ Puddleg<br />After looking at that paper, I feel like I'm living in the future.. <i>"Volume 1865, Issue 2, February 2020, 158536"</i> (false like other published things).. <br /><br />But let's take the very first sentence of the paper: <i>"A high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), particularly n-3 PUFAs, is atheroprotective."</i><br /><br />Notice how this is stated as FACT even though PUFAs are not a thing - they are a class of things, and some appear to have bad effects. I don't think I believe they 'know' this 'fact'.<br /><br />The reason they say they "know" or are willing to state this as fact is from correlative papers that don't show causation. <br /><br /><i>"Since the 1970s, most of the epidemiological data highlighted the cardioprotective attributes of a high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids ..."</i><br /><br />Once they finished spewing the grant seeking mantra - the paper is about macrophage uptake - not cardiovascular disease ( unless you accept another series of ungrounded narratives).<br /><br />This does not show LDL entering the intima wall - it is about it entering macrophages.. If you follow this story close enough it is important to try to see what they are NOT talking about. <br /><br />Their narrative is that PUFA's lower LDL and because everyone 'knows' that LDL is the 'cause' eating concentrated seed oil is 'cardio-protective'. BS -- I don't think macrophages appear until after the damage occurs - I don't think they can show LDL (no matter what size or color of the stripes) entering the intima wall because it probably doesn't. <br /><br />My hunch is that eating PUFA lowers LDL by causing inappropriate storage of lipids - making people fat and miserable. Big ag pushed this to the max - selling seed-oils as some sort of health elixir - yet the Keys' data was hidden as the death rate went in the wrong direction - much easier to treat blood-test levels than the pesky death statistic.karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-20760371233980887182019-11-17T20:22:43.684+00:002019-11-17T20:22:43.684+00:00@Karl,
and here we find that EPA and DHA do not i...@Karl,<br /><br />and here we find that EPA and DHA do not improve macrophage cholesterol efflux in vitro.<br />Thanks to Peter's lessons, I now know to look at the culture medium.<br />2000 mg/dL glucose?<br />So I take it that this is what we might see during a post-prandial glucose spike in someone with impaired glycaemic control.<br />Who knows what will happen in a healthy individual, or in the fasting state.<br />https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388198119301878?via%3Dihub<br />Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-69760331220068726372019-11-15T23:01:07.306+00:002019-11-15T23:01:07.306+00:00@cavenewt @Puddleg
First, the 'Mediteranian ...@cavenewt @Puddleg <br /><br />First, the 'Mediteranian diet' was actually a marketing campaign. (read :'The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet' for the details).<br /><br />What I would also say is all of the "concentrated seed oils (aka PUFA) belong in your diet" narrative is marketing - not science.<br /><br />If you pay for lunch for the right people you can get the results you want. <br /><br />Most of the fatty-acid nonsense is based on junk-science/weak-correlative-evidence and ego powered narratives. Be very careful what you believe. <br /><br />One line of the paper jumped out "Omega 3 fats as a component of a healthy diet have been extensively studied and there are now recommended intakes from a number of organisations[<i>sic</i>] ."<br /><br />Yes, it has been studied - Most of the papers are junk though - yet the narratives are 'all-knowing'. Most everything I 'knew' about diet 25-years ago turned out to be wrong - I suspect many bits of what I think I now 'know' is wrong as well. Be very careful about what you believe. <br /><br />One has to realize that adding seed oil to the diet is a second round of the Malthusian theory - the first was farming - big population spike. Would there be enough food if they were not pushing seed oils? I think it is 'junk food' - but think of how many people get the most of their calories from eating sugar-drinks and oil-covered carbs(CIAB). <br /><br />I don't think there is real science behind the 'essential fatty acid' narratives - they had confounding uncontrolled variables. Could be a long wait for someone to do a proper follow-up study; why do a study when everyone 'knows' the results?<br /><br />Some of the problem is understanding not only if the results are 'significant' in the science - as well as 'significant' in the common understanding of the word. Humans are very bad at judging relative risks..karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-11624575757459718432019-11-14T21:04:38.132+00:002019-11-14T21:04:38.132+00:00It's good stuff - interesting case study in th...It's good stuff - interesting case study in there of woman able to have successful pregnancy with no "essential" fatty acids (or fats at all) in diet!<br /><br />The mechanism for SFA raising serum omega-3s is described elsewhere as follows:<br />Long chain omega 3s and myristic acid (C:14) both reduce triglycerides by triggering removal and catabolism of TGs from ApoB within the liver. (The omegas also cause the ApoB to be catabolised and the C:14 doesn't). So if C:14 is present with omega-3s it is sacrificed instead of some of the EPA or DHA, sparing more into circulation. <br />That effect is independent of other benefits from SFA as a replacement for LA, which will also improve 3/6 ratio.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-74339717842261942102019-11-14T19:37:14.812+00:002019-11-14T19:37:14.812+00:00Puddleg, thanks.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/sc...Puddleg, thanks.<br /><br />https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0952327818300140<br /><br />I have the whole thing if anyone wants it. Haven't perused yet.cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-22089977783072209032019-11-12T01:01:13.084+00:002019-11-12T01:01:13.084+00:00@Karl @Cavenewt,
Even in the absence of high LA i...@Karl @Cavenewt,<br /><br />Even in the absence of high LA intake, high ALA intake can suppress long-chain omega 3 content of circulating lipids.<br /><br /><br />The best outcome for EPA and DHA seems to be with higher SFA and lower LA and ALA - dig up the Gibson paper for a cool 3D graph of this.<br /><br />From these papers, if you had no meat or fish so had to use mustardseed, canola or flaxseed oil to get your omega 3, you'd keep the dose very low and add plenty of butter.<br />As vegetarian Indians used to do, before their diabesity epidemic, by adding a little mustardseed oil to ghee.<br /><br />1] Gibson, Robert A. Musings about the role dietary fats after 40 years of fatty acid research. Prostaglandins, Leukotrienes and Essential Fatty Acids, Volume 131, 1 – 5<br /><br />2] Garg ML, Thomson ABR, and Clandinin M T. Interactions of saturated, n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids to modulate arachidonic acid metabolism.<br />February 1990 The Journal of Lipid Research, 31, 271-277.<br /><br />3] Dabadie H, Motta C, Peuchant E, LeRuyet P, Mendy F. Variations in daily intakes of myristic and alpha-linolenic acids in sn-2 position modify lipid profile and red blood cell membrane fluidity. Br J Nutr. 2006 Aug;96(2):283-9.<br /><br />4] Dias Cintia B, Wood LG, and Garg Manohar L. Effects of dietary saturated and n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids on the incorporation of long-chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids into blood lipids. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2016; 70: 812-818<br />Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-80130077222987584892019-11-08T15:06:33.292+00:002019-11-08T15:06:33.292+00:00karl
Thanks for the details. I was skeptical of &...karl<br /><br />Thanks for the details. I was skeptical of "Omega-3 eggs" anyway. I'll stick with the bugs and squirrel tails.cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66595125472365717982019-11-07T18:21:41.337+00:002019-11-07T18:21:41.337+00:00@cavenet
Only one problem - O-3s are not one thin...@cavenet<br /><br />Only one problem - O-3s are not one thing. The O-3s in fish oil that might matter are the long-chain ones. "omega-3 eggs" I suspect is pure marketing crap - they don't list the eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) content. The other O-3s could even be a bad thing. The O-3 in eggs is probably from feeding them flax-seed oil which is about 1/2 Linoleic acid. <br /><br />And - there is <b>correlative</b> evidence that these LC-O-3 may have benefits - a so-so blood thinner - connection with less mental illness. I don't think we 'know' anything close to the narratives preached about fish-oil say. <br /><br />I would want eggs from chickens eating bugs and lizards and grass..karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-31349830113954579312019-11-07T00:12:19.788+00:002019-11-07T00:12:19.788+00:00karl, good find. I scanned the references and chec...karl, good find. I scanned the references and checked the two that looked promising to see what the "domestic" birds might've been fed. Grain, of course, in the one reference that mentioned anything at all. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030504919900108X<br /><br />Here in the US we can pay an exorbitant amount for commercial "omega-3 eggs". I suppose they've been fed less grain, or perhaps, per another one of those references, their feed has been supplemented with something like fish oil which does raise O-3s – I'll try to find out. But still, anything commercial in a grocery store I would suspect is a lot less beneficial than buying eggs from a neighbor whose hens spend most of the day out in a big pasture, though I'm sure they have access to corn-based supplemental feed. When I had chickens and they were foraging every day, they ate very little commercial feed. They vastly preferred squirrel tails.<br /><br />https://academic.oup.com/ps/article/79/1/51/1548774<br /><br />"The amount of the different n-3 long-chain PUFA was lower (P < 0.001) when FO [fish oil] was present in lesser proportions in the diet."<br /><br />Is this statement paradoxical? "Replacing FO with LO [linseed oil] resulted in the lowest decline of its derivatives by elongation and desaturation and an increase in the total n-3 FA in the form of linolenic acid (LNA)." I can't recall if we like linolenic acid or not...cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-57877133473939939152019-11-06T23:59:53.420+00:002019-11-06T23:59:53.420+00:00karl,
This makes me happy I've spent the mon...karl, <br /><br />This makes me happy I've spent the money for pasture-raised eggs for awhile now.<br /><br />One thing about such eggs is that the raw yolks seem more susceptible to breaking as the white runs off. It's like a more viscous white adheres more tightly to the yolk. <br /><br />A friend once cooked a Thanksgiving turkey noting it was "vegetarian fed". He thought it was a feature. <br /><br />Since turkeys eat bugs, I'd consider a vegetarian-fed turkey a bug, not a feature.<br /><br />LA_Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09775262019154051166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-11968777866685048952019-11-06T19:18:32.334+00:002019-11-06T19:18:32.334+00:00OK - "On average, therefore, the yolk ω-6:ω-3...OK - <i>"On average, therefore, the yolk ω-6:ω-3 ratio is some 10 times greater in captivity than in the wild. In this light, the fortification of table eggs with ω-3 PUFAs to enhance human health can simply be seen as a return to the natural situation."</i><br /><br />https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-59745-330-1_10<br /><br />Big Ag - "industrialized food" is not human food..karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66296370959360738012019-11-05T21:37:02.283+00:002019-11-05T21:37:02.283+00:00https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jfq/2017/9698107/...https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jfq/2017/9698107/<br /><br />https://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i6/Splitting-Fatty-Acids.html<br /><br />http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0103-50532006000100013Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-85781711146163494672019-11-05T11:14:24.936+00:002019-11-05T11:14:24.936+00:00Passthecream-
I evaluated solid at room temp fats...Passthecream-<br /><br />I evaluated solid at room temp fats/oils years ago as potential phase change materials to soak up heat in an oxygen generator I was building. In mixtures you don't really have discrete melting points of each constituant. The mp is basically dictated by the ratios and in the case of cocoa butter the crystals that are formed during the original melting/quenching cycle. Chocolate bar manufacturing is cool stuff because of this. Allows you to handle the chocolate without it making a huge mess in your hand. A lot like metallurgy. I have a dsc at work and can see this in the traces. An easy test to find the actual melting point is to poke the fat with a small glass capillary tube and place it in a glass beaker full of water. You slowly raise the temp on the water bath until the solid goes from a crystalline form to a clear transparent liquid. All while watching the water temp. You can't be messing around and get distracted. I found using a nice HD video camera with a higher framerate worked awesome so I could continue to multitask. Lol!<br /><br />Btw, I found a cool paper that evaluates the different methods for analyzing fatty acid profiles. Hard shoot fatty acids and get good data on the GC since they are already somewhat oxidized? The FID might have a problem because of that. HPLC is probably the way to go. You can methylate them with methanol and then they are much more volatile? Then you can get good differentiation on the gc. Then you just use a reference methylated fatty acid at known concentrations that wouldn't be in the normal makeup and ratio that in to the mix, then you should be able to quantify. I'll post up the link to the paper when I get to work.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-36061784852370238702019-11-04T04:01:24.706+00:002019-11-04T04:01:24.706+00:00If chickens are anything at all like mammals I ima...If chickens are anything at all like mammals I imagine you'd find the most saturated FAs not in the more exterior parts you'd normally get from the BBQ chicken shop but around the organs and within your 'inner chicken'. <br /><br />A deep philosophical construct for some, I'm sure. Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-84869313443371140152019-11-01T22:26:52.977+00:002019-11-01T22:26:52.977+00:00Justin, I think I'd get a knock on the door fr...Justin, I think I'd get a knock on the door from the p.i.c. if I built one of those. <br /><br />M.P. differences of the isolated fatty acids are huge:<br />69C for stearic vs 25c for oleic and -7c for linoleic so a simple refrigerative technique should work. Cooled spinning disk? Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54352126678187274152019-11-01T13:42:36.116+00:002019-11-01T13:42:36.116+00:00Here is one possible small scale way of separating...Here is one possible small scale way of separating. Better hope you have deep pockets though. Gotta pay to play. Lol!<br /><br />https://www.brinstrument.com/fractional-distillation/spinning-band-distillation.html<br />Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-44933746023434518812019-11-01T13:14:36.971+00:002019-11-01T13:14:36.971+00:00Separations chemistry is actually pretty cool stuf...Separations chemistry is actually pretty cool stuff. I will use dirty nylon fibers as an example. Dissolve the nylon in formic acid. Run the liquid through the appropriate micron rated filter to get the contaminates out. Then load the formic acid/nylon solution into a blender and slowly pour in water. The formic acid is miscible with the water but the nylon isn't. You will crash out the nylon and then all you have to do is pour off the aqueous formic acid solution and rinse the nylon a few times with water. I used to do this in big SS party blenders. Fun stuff!Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-73807019165496005692019-11-01T13:06:39.014+00:002019-11-01T13:06:39.014+00:00Passthecream
We've done a fair amount of sepa...Passthecream<br /><br />We've done a fair amount of separations over the years at work. Without thinking about it too much, distillation is the first thing that comes to mind. I feel like it would have to be a multipass kind of thing with the correct condenser geometry to get the purity you want. Definitely expensive unless you have good fab skills and some material/hardware laying around. I'll ask my boss about it and see what he says. Need to look up the boiling points of each fatty acid when I have a chance.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-63239705053980171082019-11-01T09:37:08.109+00:002019-11-01T09:37:08.109+00:00Justin, you are probably the one to ask - I have b...Justin, you are probably the one to ask - I have been thinking about methods of separating fatty acids. Thermal methods would seem to be better than centrifuging since there is not a huge density variation from linoleic through to stearic acids. Frozen olive oil is a well known gourmet treat as a butter alternative but that is all triglycerides. If you put a cup of oil in a freezer, the higher freezing point tags do go viscid more quickly around the edges of the container but not as big a melying point range between eg stearic-stearic-oleic triglyceride and oleic-la-la as between stearic acid and linoleic acid. There seems to be a lot of thermal inertia too ie between freezing back to melting, hysteresis. <br /><br />Then there is the question of how to extract the fatty acids from the triglycerides - saponification? Maybe with super-fatting in saline alkali and excess water, harvest the scum from on top? The only alternative seems to be fats in water in a pressure vessel to 280c to separate the fatty acids. Bit risky!!! <br /><br />It would be fun to isolate some stearic acid via bucket chem.<br /><br />Any thoughts?Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-25207283190352847042019-10-31T10:35:47.282+00:002019-10-31T10:35:47.282+00:00Cavenewt-
That's crazy! I've seen them d...Cavenewt-<br /><br />That's crazy! I've seen them do the snake slurp thing many times in the spring. They once killed a giant copperhead and fed on it for a couple of days until just the bones were left.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-73202935957914483702019-10-31T04:24:20.504+00:002019-10-31T04:24:20.504+00:00Justin—
Somewhere I have a video of one of my chi...Justin—<br /><br />Somewhere I have a video of one of my chickens fighting the cat for the remains of a squirrel the cat was eating. Chook acquired the tail, which she slurped down like a cartoon spaghetti noodle.cavenewthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461541719892430585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-35476148647969983702019-10-31T02:30:55.119+00:002019-10-31T02:30:55.119+00:00I'm a big fan of guineafowl but there are none...I'm a big fan of guineafowl but there are none living near me atm and I know nothing about the lipid profile. I will enquire.Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-1326927894162661282019-10-31T00:00:42.502+00:002019-10-31T00:00:42.502+00:00Passthecream, I can't wait to deal dive into t...Passthecream, I can't wait to deal dive into the methods on those papers! Thanks for posting!Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-44248455788159877322019-10-30T19:45:34.413+00:002019-10-30T19:45:34.413+00:00I always tell people chickens are omnivores with a...I always tell people chickens are omnivores with a carnivorous slant. Lol!<br /><br />https://youtu.be/LRn0puwK_f0Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688462291078238507noreply@blogger.com