tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post8822579281872991907..comments2024-03-27T22:57:00.742+00:00Comments on Hyperlipid: Metform (11) metformin vs mtG3Pdh knockoutPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-27495198709520036862019-08-03T15:33:39.480+00:002019-08-03T15:33:39.480+00:00Peter I downloaded the Madiraju paper and printed ...Peter I downloaded the Madiraju paper and printed it out and am working my way through it. <br />For relaxation I found a interview of James DiNicolantonio by David Perlmutter last March, and since I am always looking for practical, cheap, ideas to help our health, James is one of my favorites. Just a two minute view would be appreciated as at minute 27:38 James mentions 4HNE and then linoleic acid metabolites and says these omega 6s are worse for our health, than sugar, by far.Then David goes on for a few seconds about some arachidonic acid metabolites impact on two endocannabinoid receptors to increase inflammation. They stop this line of talk at minute 29:30.<br /><br />Any insights or comments would be appreciated, by you or any of this team you have helped assemble. <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsjC8mC2FeE Fred Landerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907791464419595586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-30885982964980827112019-08-01T20:38:53.146+00:002019-08-01T20:38:53.146+00:00Fred, Madiraju has been core to tying the Protons ...Fred, Madiraju has been core to tying the Protons series of posts to the Metformin series. That 2014 paper is really good. I too have been giving some thought to IGF-1 in particular. The mouse models using rapamycin are interesting but not encouraging!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527788116058656094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-73847752933301209412019-08-01T17:48:06.903+00:002019-08-01T17:48:06.903+00:00Ivor Cummins posted a link to a video presentation...Ivor Cummins posted a link to a video presentation by Dr. Shulman yesterday and usually Ivor tries to not get super technical so as to reach a larger audience, so this is an exception. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnvmEUUtoZw )<br /><br /> I took some notes and at minute 43:20 Dr. Shulman talks about metformin for 20 seconds and references Madiraju , Nature 2014. He says the metformin inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis by decreasing the conversion of lactate to pyruvate and glycerol to dihydroxyacetone phosphate. <br /><br />At 51:20 he discusses one approach to make use of the role of DAG and Acetyl COA in reversing type II diabetes and that is to promote mitochondrial fat oxidation through liver targeted mitochondrial uncoupling, with several studies as evidence. He said they have shown we can increase hepatic fat oxidation , which improves hepatic insulin sensitivity , and reduces hepatic gluconeogenesis through acetyl COA reduction, and this is heart healthy as it lowers VLDL and triglycerides and lowers muscle fat content and increases muscle insulin sensitivity. Targeting uncoupling will also lower liver fat and inflammation in 3 rodent models of NASH. <br /><br />Somewhere he did show a chart with etomoxir and atglistatin to inhibit liver gluconeogenesis. <br /><br /><br />I got into ketosis by accident when I was experimenting with coconut oil to cook. My appetite plummeted and soon I lost 35 lbs. in 5 months. Next I know my A1c down to 5.0 and had been 5.8 several years before. No looking back for me, now over 3 years keto and having some concerns about arachidonic acid and mTOR and IGF-1 for cancer long term. Also elevated PSA three times and brought down with supplements, but still concerned as last time lymphocyte/monocyte ratio plummeted to 1.73 and had always been above 3. But that is another story. <br /><br />.Fred Landerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907791464419595586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-69283718585279783152019-06-12T22:46:43.883+00:002019-06-12T22:46:43.883+00:00... consumption. Btw not the liver size but: '...... consumption. Btw not the liver size but: 'healthy human liver contains 575 international units (IU) of vitamin A per gram while a polar bear's liver contains between 24,000 and 35,000 IU per gram'Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-14881401084452038472019-06-12T22:39:53.799+00:002019-06-12T22:39:53.799+00:00It would be amusing if the alleged benefits of alc...It would be amusing if the alleged benefits of alcohol assumption were owing to it counteracting the effects of a vitamin!!!<br /><br />Gyan, food databases don't show much A in most land animal muscle meats. Liver and kidney numbers though, perhaps other organs are astronomical. Polar bears seem to hold the record and have larger livers just to be able to cope with, to store, the huge vit A levels in their favourite food, whole seal. <br /><br />Some idiot ate a polar bear liver apparently. Their skin sloughed off not long afterwards. Genereux mentions avoiding lard from corn fed pigs. <br /><br />Steak it is, and chops.Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-33321226979577915812019-06-12T12:47:39.501+00:002019-06-12T12:47:39.501+00:00This is more Hyperlipid friendly:
"Retinol ...This is more Hyperlipid friendly:<br /><br /><br />"Retinol as electron carrier in redox signaling, "<br /><br />https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4739943/<br /><br />'How can chronic vitamin A excess lead to pathology? The action of two inhibitory retinoids, AR (55) and fenretinide (105) may be informative. In cell culture experiments, these retinoids caused mitochondrial stress and necrotic cell death (25,58,106-109). Both retinoids are known to bind the PKCδ activation domain with similar affinity as retinol (28), but inexplicably they caused the hyper-activation of mitochondrial PKCδ (25) leading to cell death. This was reflected in one study by high levels of ROS (58), while in another AR-treated cells became depleted of ATP to a degree that they could no longer survive (107). The paradox, why AR (or feneretinide) can substitute for retinol as activating cofactors of PKCδ, but why this mode of activation leads to cell necrosis, remains unresolved. It is noteworthy that supranormal retinol levels (above 2 micromoles) are also toxic, as the inverted U-shaped retinol dose responses indicate (25). '<br /><br /><br />This includes the working definition of vit. A content:<br /><br />https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/nutrition-food-safety-health/fat-soluble-vitamins-a-d-e-and-k-9-315/<br /><br />'How Much Vitamin A Do We Need?<br /><br />The recommendation for vitamin A intake is expressed as micrograms (mcg) of retinol activity equivalents (RAE). Retinol activity equivalents account for the fact that the body converts only a portion of beta-carotene to retinol. One RAE equals 1 mcg of retinol or 12 mcg of beta-carotene (Table 1). The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin A is 900 mcg/ day for adult males and 700 mcg/day for adult females.<br /><br />Compared to vitamin A containing foods, it takes twice the amount of carotene rich foods to meet the body’s vitamin A requirements, so one may need to increase consumption of carotene containing plant foods to meet the RDA for vitamin A.<br /><br />Studies indicate that vitamin A requirements may be increased due to hyperthyroidism, fever, infection, cold, and exposure to excessive amounts of sunlight. Those who consume excess alcohol or have renal disease should also increase intake of vitamin A.'<br /><br /><br />And presumably the inverse applies, those who don't have infection or consume excess alcohol should not increase their intake.<br /><br />Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-56047549100527602612019-06-12T04:27:49.817+00:002019-06-12T04:27:49.817+00:00People have subsisted quite healthily on meat diet...People have subsisted quite healthily on meat diet before--eg fatty meat diet prescribed by Dr Donaldson of Strong Medicine book. I guess fatty meat contains enough vit-A. It is strange that Genereux in writing hundreds and thousands of pages never comes down to telling us precisely what cuts of beef and bison is he using. Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-44824732781021259992019-06-12T01:03:23.111+00:002019-06-12T01:03:23.111+00:00Not my favourite person but an interesting intervi...Not my favourite person but an interesting interview in light of the above.<br /><br />https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/folic-acid-protective-against-autistic-traits-in-babies/9484510#transcript<br /><br />Bread nor milk in Australia are not usually supplemented with vit A but bread has mandatory folate. Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-69581720402078605652019-06-11T16:29:53.082+00:002019-06-11T16:29:53.082+00:00Anything can be a toxin if it is in the wrong plac...Anything can be a toxin if it is in the wrong place, the wrong amount, unguarded or as you say out of balance. Put most of that hypothesising to one side and just go check up the numbers, the epidemiology. References are given. Devise a plausible explanation for those population patterns. <br /><br />Try cutting out those foods for a few days. It's a fun thing to do, cleaning out the fridge, revising your menu - unless you are so addicted to those things that you can't handle it. Going cold turkey on A is giving interesting results for me very quickly much as he suggested it would.<br /><br />I do not think that deep cold saltwater fish and fish oil is the natural food of humans. The milk of domesticated animals might be a bit tricky too, coupled with a constant supply of out-of-season inbred fruits and vegetables. Eggs would not have been available all year long in the distant past. It is all too much. <br /><br /><br />Gyan, I think you are cherry picking his cherry picking. Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-42908403576002783842019-06-11T12:35:33.166+00:002019-06-11T12:35:33.166+00:00Gyan,
I dont buy either that vit A is a toxin, I ...Gyan,<br /><br />I dont buy either that vit A is a toxin, I believe it has its use, but maybe there's more to the overconsumption of it and not balancing with enough K and D. I was thinking about how it's easy to get A, but most people dont get sufficient or are deficient on K and D.<br /><br />So you can either reduce your A or balance the others. Just a thought here. le frotahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202231431943097365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-55342321864833576222019-06-11T12:09:48.119+00:002019-06-11T12:09:48.119+00:00By the way Genereux is wrong about allied POWs sub...By the way Genereux is wrong about allied POWs subsisting on zero A diet. I easily found on net many papers on this topic. The Japanese were giving them vegetables -- 100 g /d was the ration. They were also getting Red Cross parcels.Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-83633082592355305372019-06-11T11:54:32.440+00:002019-06-11T11:54:32.440+00:00In the breast cancer book, he brings up the object...In the breast cancer book, he brings up the objection that vit-A is found in the breast milk so it must be essential. He answers by the example of DDT that occurs in trace amounts in the breast milk. So, vit-A in the breast milk is a toxin that mother accidentally passes on to the child!.<br /><br />So your argument that he is saying that vit-A "is multifunction but the main role is innate immunity" does not hold. He is specific that vit-A is toxic and has no function in the human body.<br />Indeed, in his 3 books, I doubt if he has mentioned existence of vit-A receptors. He says flat-out that vit-A disturbs DNA causing 300 types of mutations.<br /><br />His biochemistry, if it can be called so, is essentially different from what we are used to. Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-63405347541064098832019-06-11T05:51:53.637+00:002019-06-11T05:51:53.637+00:00Passthecream,
He should avoid saying that vitamin...Passthecream,<br /> He should avoid saying that vitamin-A is not a vitamin at all but a toxic molecule. This is endless. <br />The matter of liver storage, daily depletion and intake is quantitative and can not be hand waved by pointing to finiteness of the storage. How much is liver actually capable of storing? <br /><br />I would suppose that avoidance of liver and fish oils should take care of going over with vit-A intake. Beta-carotenes in fruits and vegetables are probably poorly absorbed unless vegetables are eaten fried. Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-42266358141282063792019-06-11T00:20:36.397+00:002019-06-11T00:20:36.397+00:00Le Frota: Lamb chops are good too. Free range pou...Le Frota: Lamb chops are good too. Free range poultry. Etc. Cauliflower, onions, most spices are ok. Peeled simple vegetables if you feel the need but not solanums, sweet potatoes or carrots. Skip the dairy foods.<br /><br />I have been minimising A as much as possible for a week now and it is as good a change as when I first gave up wheat and sugar. I had certainly been having too much of it. <br /><br />Gyan7 Jun 2019, 08:12:00: "<br />Genereux regards vitamin-A as toxic in itself. Not just in excess--that would be the standard view Genereux is dissenting from."<br /><br />He certainly needs the services of a good editor but I don't think that is quite right. To briefly summarise what I think he is saying is that: <br /><br />1) it is multifunction but the main role is innate immunity (eg like salt and etc.) So there is a need for some of it. It's a tightly controlled bug killer. So, the RDA is way too high for people who live in a hygienic and relatively disease free environment. It is particularly toxic in the form of free retinoic acid <br /><br />2) it accumulates if not used and storage capacity is finite. Liver is the usual location and liver volume is small in the very young, increases to about age 18 then reduces by almost half by age 65.<br /><br />3) the toxicities exhibit a cluster of symptoms which are very similar to a range of what are currently thought to be autoimmune diseases, also similar the range of known symptoms of a transient vit A overdose.Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-50565504412170921822019-06-10T23:00:11.007+00:002019-06-10T23:00:11.007+00:00Keto has been working out great for me - I haven&#...Keto has been working out great for me - I haven't had a single really low drop in blood sugar (based on my mood and ability to work) ever since the 'keto flu' period (If only I knew ahead of time to megadose sodium, magnesium and potassium to get through the keto flu part painlessly). I'm also taking the metformin since you said it will also help with the weight loss. In addition the more stable blood sugar is making fasting a breeze, whereas it was taking up enormous willpower and shame before. Thank you all for the recommendation, my life has become much easier since.<br /><br />There was a lot of fear going into the diet, especially since there are hundreds of articles saying that keto is going to kill me via cancer or whatever, until I read about 'Angus Barbieri' the man who fasted for 382 days. Apparently the body uses ketosis/ketones for energy during long fasts so if this guy could live for a year purely on ketones then keto can't be a fatal diet.Balamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04395699788987691924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-14503502148088918532019-06-10T21:27:19.648+00:002019-06-10T21:27:19.648+00:00Passthecream,
I was wondering if that's one ...Passthecream, <br /><br />I was wondering if that's one of the reasons people are being successful eating only steaks? The Andersen family comes to mind, they've been eating only steaks for 20 years and dont seem to have aged a bit lol.<br /><br />I'm still not convinced of all of this, but I'm trying to avoid it since my problem is always that I get too much of that by eating liver and eggs, so even for the normal standards I worry I consume too much.le frotahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202231431943097365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-59521759300702650022019-06-10T14:54:33.333+00:002019-06-10T14:54:33.333+00:00.. way over! ..... way over! ...Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-80196903067692264542019-06-10T14:52:47.888+00:002019-06-10T14:52:47.888+00:00Dang I lost a long and obviously brilliant comment...Dang I lost a long and obviously brilliant comment. Everyone can relax again. <br /><br />Gyan, please have a look through his first version 'Extinguishing the fires of hell' It seems more reasonable to me. The Finnish example is intriguing as is the North East Canadian data post the mid '90s. It's a free ebook, so I guess take it or leave it. He's not selling anything afaict. I seek out the useful parts and see where they lead. Genereux freely admits the flimsy nature of some of his speculations and invites feedback. <br /><br />I was also going to mention that is terrifically easy to overdose on vit A if you follow a HFLC way of eating. Regularly eating cheese, cream, butter, liver, eggs, berries, leafy greens and herbs perhaps, chilli, red pepper and tomatoes - you're way! One portion of sweet potato and you're in deep trouble. <br /><br />There is an over-abundance of it in the food chain. Don't mention fruit. And Americans put it in flour and milk, just in case you miss out. Something rotten there...<br /><br />Do they really put vitamin A in the sugar in Mexico???????Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-27561560787361239322019-06-10T09:37:41.144+00:002019-06-10T09:37:41.144+00:00Peter - I have been enjoying your site for a long ...Peter - I have been enjoying your site for a long time but I cannot work out whether you think metformin is a good idea in certain circumstances. As an LCHF eater I find my glucose levels are hovering around 100 most of the day, sometimes up to 115, occasionally dropping into the 80s. A1C is between 5.2 and 5.5...not bad but not ideal. It was 5.8 at one point. I am not sure whether metformin is a good idea just to nudge those numbers down somewhat.<br /><br />Another long running question I have is why you are worried about excess protein and the TCA cycle. I bought and read Nick Lane's books (great stuff), including the chapter you point to as your argument, but I still cannot quite see the connection. Protein metabolism creates oxidative stress? I eat moderate protein anyway, but this remains one of the biggest debate points in the LCHF world (+keto + carnivore and all other spawn of LC)...your opinion matters to me on this. Richard Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01560883057034235420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-35150918970355943812019-06-09T03:45:15.619+00:002019-06-09T03:45:15.619+00:00He is also awfully coy on whether vit-A has any le...He is also awfully coy on whether vit-A has any legitimate bodily function.<br />And I don't buy that liver stores vit-A as detoxification <br />Why won't body try to expel a toxin instead of sequestering it in liver? Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54141333679436597242019-06-08T02:51:51.163+00:002019-06-08T02:51:51.163+00:00As an Indian it was curious to have India lauded a...As an Indian it was curious to have India lauded as a healthy nation relative to USA. Though he is probably correct that we have lower rates of auto-immune disorders than the West. <br />I have too always wondered about these RDAs. Curiously the scientific advances of last half century have bypassed the old established RDAs. I would have thought there would be steady research in refining these values but there seems to be no current work in this field Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-18713357740353007412019-06-07T14:54:10.598+00:002019-06-07T14:54:10.598+00:00Not to my knowledge. The opposite is true!
Step...Not to my knowledge. The opposite is true!<br /><br /><br />Stepping away from that particular strange collection of ideas for a moment:<br /><br /> The storage limits and the potential dangers of vit A are widely publicised and accepted so that's nothing new. I am interested to know what really are the base experiments which established and maintain the recommendations and which are used to justify fortification. Is it as he says? Does it all point back to those original experiments from approx 100 years ago? It sounds strongly reminiscent of the whole cholesterol fiasco, a similar type of a collection of heavily defended and often repeated theories based in bad science and which don't stand close examination. The dynamics of that seem to be the same. It is a stubbornly held and pernicious set of medical beliefs.<br /><br />It is almost impossible to find advice on the interwebz about how to lower your vitamin A levels and which vit A containing foods are best avoided. It was tedious to compile a list of the vit A levels vs foods I like to eat. Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-66517703694679114162019-06-07T11:37:58.634+00:002019-06-07T11:37:58.634+00:00Is vitamin-D a well-known toxin as Genereux says a...Is vitamin-D a well-known toxin as Genereux says at pg 322?<br />Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-31446053921714291652019-06-07T09:22:26.709+00:002019-06-07T09:22:26.709+00:00'This subject, though very interesting and it ...'This subject, though very interesting and it is all too likely that modern medicine has made some howlers here, needs a more sober writer. '<br /><br />I agree <br />- and there are some howlers in there alright but there is good stuff too. <br />It needs some reputable basic research. <br /><br /><br />It has set me looking and thinking however.<br />Many of the high A foods are foods with which I have had strange problems, not necessarily attributable to vit A but I am testing the hypothesis with an N=1 trial. It isn't the least bit onerous appart from the cheese.<br /><br />Passthecreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214860448492630477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36840063.post-54216214219749860872019-06-07T08:12:49.796+00:002019-06-07T08:12:49.796+00:00Genereux regards vitamin-A as toxic in itself. Not...Genereux regards vitamin-A as toxic in itself. Not just in excess--that would be the standard view Genereux is dissenting from. <br />So, is vitamin-A in its various forms merely a widespread plant toxin that animals have to accommodate to somehow? Without there being a positive role of vitamin-A in animal metabolism?<br />Is all vitamin-A biochemistry just detoxification?<br /><br />Why is Vitamin-A found in mammalian milk? <br />His numbers are very dubious. IS it really so that modern American intake of vitamin-A is 100-1000 times that in historical times?. That the incidence of auto-immune disorders in the West upto 1000 times that in poor countries?<br /><br />And his discussion of role of Vitamin-A in vision is simply shoddy. He says vision can't be a chemical reaction as the relevant reaction is exothermic and takes place (some large number) times a day. Thus eyes would melt !!! --without working out the total energy liberated and the estimated temperature increase.<br /><br />Thus, he says vision must be an electric process. He fails to realize that in body, chemical and electric are not mutually exclusive. <br /><br />This subject, though very interesting and it is all too likely that modern medicine has made some howlers here, needs a more sober writer. Is it likely that his hair went from grey to 90% black post-his vitamin-A depleted diet and as he took some lutein supplement went to 70% grey?<br />And went to 90% black again as he discontinued lutein?Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.com