Here's the link to the panel discussion about PUFA and obesity, hosted by David Gornoski.
My Big Fat Panel: How Seed Oils Cause Obesity - A Neighbor's Choice by David Gornoski
It was an interesting discussion but I'm not really sure we achieved any consensus as to how you would convince a mainstream scientist that we are correct...
Peter
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ReplyDelete(Regarding convincing the mainstream - thank god they are too CO2-conscious to burn pesky contrarians at the stake much at all anymore. I don’t quite remember who said that sadly, usually the field changes only when the big name proponents die - but it definitely seems like it. After all, better keep pushing the dogma than admit you have blood on your hands.)
ReplyDeleteSigh.
Maybe it’s not so much convincing the mainstream “scientists” as much as just letting people have an alternative hypothesis to the official one that is so obviously not working that will make a difference? It definitely did for me - and I’m so grateful for that.
Great discussion - great to hear everyone's individual theories and unique takes, as well as having discussions about how they interrelate. I would love to hear you, Brad and Ray Peat alone get into the weeds of redox stress and ROS generation. Peter, you and Brad did a particularly good job of relating everyone's individual theories to your own, and the ROS theory still seems to me (a humble layperson) to be the most sound explanation for obesity.
ReplyDeleteWhen Peat makes claims that all fat burning inadvertently causes obesity it does make me question his credibility, and it was a shame that this line of discussion was interrupted before he could explain more - albeit, in the end, he did acquiesce that C18 raises body temperature. I sincerely hope that you two speak together again in the future.
Worth looking at Tucker's site. Have a glance at the establishment fightback.
ReplyDeleteNot quite sure where to put this... Not in a Covid thread at least.
ReplyDelete"Sweat out the fat with TSLP!" Because losing fat way is the be-all and end-all of existence these days, never mind the consequences. (i.e., can you turn it off?)
"...an overabundance of TSLP ramped up the secretion of sebum, an oily substance that is high in fat and protects the skin. In essence, the mice were producing so much sebum that they were burning calories through their skin. And since TSLP engages the adaptive immune system, the mice’s T cells could remember how to burn fat, even without the cytokine: When the researchers injected the T cells of a mouse that had received excess TSLP into a mouse that had not, the recipient still lost weight." https://www.statnews.com/2022/04/04/stat-madness-2022-champion-mice-sweat-out-fat-through-skin/
The study: "Thymic stromal lymphopoietin induces adipose loss through sebum hypersecretion" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abd2893
They're talking about looking at this to treat obesity and skin diseases, but they're missing a bet. I live in a very dry desert climate; I'm imagining all the money I could save on skin lotion.
cave, that does not sound attractive! Have you read "Awakenings"? Sacks may have some degree of verbal diarrhoea but his clinical descriptions are good. Seborrheoic excess was a feature of the Parkinsonian sleepers. Unpleasant.
ReplyDeletePeter
Peter... I left out the sarcasm tag. But then maybe you did too.
ReplyDeletePeter: how is your arm? You seemed to have a cast in the video.
ReplyDeletecave, it wasn't even April 1st!
ReplyDeleteFine thanks Monica. It was just a bandage to keep iodine dressings on a set of dog bites. Occupational hazard, thankfully rare nowadays. I missed a day's bouldering through it, must have been bad! Steri strips are marvellous.
Peter
Peter - How is your bouldering going? What grade are you up to now?
ReplyDeleteI've just managed a couple of Font 6b, V-grade V4 in the last few weeks. Must be after about 4 years since starting. I still don't really do slopers or tiny chips, I doubt my fingers will ever be strong enough. My son is 15y old and is about to leave me standing, which is cool.
ReplyDeletePeter
https://highballnorwich.co.uk/routesetting/
ReplyDeletePeter
Cavenewt, by truly bizarre coincidence I was just reading some discussion about cholesterol and LDL levels versus viral and bacterial immune responses, including a post from someone who mentioned how their LDL levels plummeted after fighting off covid and how their skin and hair had gotten massively greasy at the same time. Uggh, nonetheless interesting.
ReplyDeleteBut, who worries about their LDL level when beset by Covid? (If ever).
Peter - very cool! V4 is solid! I never managed a V3 but man did i have fun trying. Anything over a v3 requires either solid technique or a light and strong build and ideally both! That gym looks really nice, too!
ReplyDeleteI live in an area where you can’t find a bouldering gym - (WV, USA) but there are some outside climbing areas, so hopefully I’ll get to get back at it before long, and get my kids addicted to it too. (They are 2 and 3 - so hopefully soon!) Coolest sport on earth!
Also, having your kid beat you at something like this is so very awesome! Must feel great! Cheers!
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/O6MWpG4jxr0
ReplyDeleteThe one Dan and I can both do. It's a V4 because the last move, the left hand high reach, is a bugger and at the very top of the comp wall. It's a long way down when you don't make it!
Peter
Peter- it’s quite interesting, watching how differently you and your kiddo approach the same route. You both have essentially the same build - but being a kiddo, he wastes strength and endurance, counting on his body to deal with slight miscounts/errors, while you are more calculated and careful in your approach. Old age and trickery, am i right? Hehe! He’d do good with some flexibility training, especially with the hip joint - he keeps too far off the wall, and that saps strength….
ReplyDeleteIt’s definitely an interesting route - and you are both impressively strong for your weight to make it look as easy as you do! Very cool!
Good stuff Peter. Such an awesome activity to get your kids involved in. I probably would have attacked it the same way you did. I'm definitely interested in finding a place locally where I can play. I've always loved climbing trees, so I'm sure I would love doing this. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteTrying to keep that pufa content low. Some of these ewes are about to bust. Lol!!!
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/B4b3TfPsRyc
lapis, yes. Once he realises....
ReplyDeleteJustin, I *have* used a gym, back in the 70s as an ancillary to winning marathon kayak races. Other than that I need stuff to be fun.
Peter
Haha! I didn't realize going into this panel that we were supposed to reach a consensus that could be shopped to the mainstream. Given the benefit of hindsight, I suppose I would make an argument like: PUFA disrupt oxidative balance.
ReplyDeleteBrad
I have to agree there Brad. Summary:
ReplyDeletePUFA -> excess caloric ingress -> oxidative stress (excess ROS)
Oxidative stress -> ETC dammage -> reductive stress (excess NADH)
But mechanistically you have to go in to Protons and this is still an area where there is no insight in the mainstream outside of a couple of researchers, none in the obesity/metabolic syndrome field. There is no shared vocabulary. Imagine trying to explain how ROS control insulin signaling and how food controls ROS generation to an overweight CICOtard obesity specialist who might not recall that electron transporting flavoprotein dehydrogenase is part of the electron transport chain.
Tucker's starting point of LA -> toxic radicals is much, much simpler and could be "sold". Especially when combined with LA -> arachidonic acid -> 2AG -> hunger.
It's not fundamental but it is straight forward.
Peter
Pass,
ReplyDelete"... skin and hair had gotten massively greasy ..."
Hmmm, that happened to me the first time I got covid. I think I mentioned it somewhere, but I haven't had any blood tests for a while so no idea what my LDL was doing. I gather cholesterol transport is involved with the immune system so I guess there is a connection there somewhere. I suspect I had covid again this year, but didn't notice the greasy effect this time.
Malcolm
So does oxidative stress influence which disease processes are more / less likely?
ReplyDeleteMore OS: metsyn, cvd, bph more likely
Less OS: cancer more likely
Maybe others can be added in? Or the "More OS" group subdivided by some other factor?