Anyway, here is the cocoa butter paper:
Differential effects of saturated versus unsaturated dietary fatty acids on weight gain and myocellular lipid profiles in mice
Here are the diet compositions:
The line in red is the total percent of calories from linoleic acid in each diet. Here are the body weight changes:
The bottom two lines are the low fat high carbohydrate diet which happens to come in at just 1% linoleic acid and the cocoa butter diet which comes in at 1.4% of calories as linoleic acid. The high palmitic acid gives the most weight gain as it delivers 4.5% of calories as PUFA. Olive oil is a close second, also with 4.5% linoleic acid. The oddity is the safflower oil diet which is very high in PUFA but only gives intermediate obesity. Quite what is going on here is difficult to say but you have to wonder at what level of omega 6 PUFA that "next level up" signalling (lipid peroxide based) kicks in. No data on that, just a guess/excuse from the Protons perspective. There are a number of other studies showing this phenomenon of limited weight gain with safflower oil.
Still, stearic acid as cocoa butter is still looking pretty good. All of the high fat diets were based around different fat sources placed in to the D1245 background so are equally high in sucrose and starch too, comparable amounts across all of the higher fat diets.
Peter
I just received cocoa butter I ordered online, not quite sure what to do with it yet but was thinking some kind of bulletproof coffee but will look around to see how people use it. Since xmas ive gone from low carb to playing with the “croissant” diet but I don’t have Stearic acid yet, I live in Ireland so not going to be quite so easy to source but there is probably something on Amazon UK that will work. Ive noticed that some say its from a vegetarian source, is that a deal breaker? or is it basically a chemical so it makes no difference to the human body? A second question, do I need to see “food grade” for it to be safe consume? If it’s a craft site for example that is selling it to make candles, do I need to ask any questions?
ReplyDeleteI get cocoa butter as little wafers from Wild Foods. Put a little spoonful of all natural peanut butter on a water and you you have a passable, low carb high fat "Reese's peanut butter cup". Just enough to kill a craving for a treat.
DeleteSilverharp, just a thought, but have you considered trying Peter's old chocolate butter recipe (https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search?q=chocolate+butter) and adding a mixture of butter + cocoa butter? Adding honey for a hint of sweetness will make it more "croissant diet"-like in terms of the macros, but omitting the honey would make it lower carb but still following the principle of maximising SAT:POLY fat ratio.
ReplyDeleteRemember that Brad explained he included the carbs in the croissant diet only to prove that it's not necessary to cut carbs to lose weight with stearic acid, i.e. ketosis is not required. The last time I checked, he was making no claims whether or not the macro content of the diet had anything to do with the effects of the stearic acid:
ReplyDelete"More importantly, I was trying to prove my point that 'A primary regulator of whole body energy balance is the ratio of saturated to unsaturated fat.' If I was going to make myself into a guinea pig I didn’t want anyone to accuse me of creating a diet that worked because of some other mechanism, such as that it was secretly a keto diet or that it was a gluten free diet or a grain free diet or a low food reward diet. Nope, I wanted to demonstrate that I, a person who had managed to approach morbid obesity, could lose weight by eating tasty croissant sandwiches." https://fireinabottle.net/introducing-the-croissant-diet/
Speaking for myself, I'm not using stearic acid as an excuse to start eating bakery items again!
I did acquire some "food-grade" stearic acid from Amazon, which I understand is about half stearic and half palmitic, and with a melting point of ~150°F (66°C) it's like using grated crayons. Kind of hard to integrate into food. So I've mostly switched to cocoa butter.
I use it two ways. To make a sort of bulletproof tea, I melt a chunk of cocoa butter and a chunk of goat butter in some tea, then whiz with a stick blender along with some inulin powder and heavy cream. The butter and possibly the inulin act as a sort of emulsifier so it stays pretty well mixed up. The other way is whenever I am sautéing something, which I do quite often, I start with a mixture of lard or tallow or coconut oil with a chunk of cocoa butter and some grassfed butter (Kerrygold—it's kind of hard to find grassfed butter in the US), and maybe toss in a spoonful of the stearic acid pellets. If heating up some soup or a casserole serving, throw in a chunk of cocoa butter. The coconut smell tends to disappear when you add it to food.
I asked in another thread about people's thoughts on inulin powder and have not received any feedback.
I still occasionally eat a salad. I no longer use olive oil, but MCT oil instead.
Peter
ReplyDelete"...Gustavo Barja's epic The Cell Ageing Regulatory System (CARS) in which longevity is tied to the Double Bond Index of the mitochondrial inner membrane..." I'm looking forward to your further thoughts on this paper. Section 6.2 especially seems to provide evidence for a vegetarian diet! And, like everybody else, they seem on the whole to be thinking that ROS production through Complex I is a Bad Thing.
Incidentally, looking at the Similar Articles in the sidebar of these papers gives me the distinct impression that most researchers don't distinguish between different types of insulin resistance...? I just want to make sure I am understanding this aspect of the Protons thread correctly — that physiological insulin resistance at the cellular level, initiated by ROS production through Complex I, is different from systemic insulin resistance (i.e. met syn/T2D), and that this kind of ROS is, at least sometimes, desirable...? Or maybe I'm completely off-base!
"BTW it is possible to modify the DBA but, with current data, it looks like you cannot alter the saturated or MUFA percentages, it is replacing omega 3s with omega 6s which mimics the mitochondria of long lived mammals!"
Having become increasingly fascinated with the whole subject of saturated versus polyunsaturated fats and their effects on mitochondrial membranes, I can't wait to hear more about this. I often have a hard time recognizing Peter's dry humor.
Silverharp, I have been just eating the cocoa butter. I either eat it raw, or I've made some butter oil with 90% stearic acid and have mixed the butter oil 50/50 with cocoa butter. I just eat it. I also use the butter oil for mixing in with food, but I've been keeping it in the fridge, and it gets very hard. You have to heat it and mix it with the food well. I'm going to start leaving it at room temperature.
ReplyDeletePeople who have tried cocoa butter in their hot beverage of choice (usually coffee) say it's good. I prefer to get my calories with food. I usually eat twice a day (when I'm not fasting), but adding the stearic acid makes me not that hungry for dinner. If my family is eating dinner, though, I have a hard time not eating.
Cavenewt, lard might not be the best option. See this:
https://fireinabottle.net/polyunsaturated-fat-pufa-in-pork-and-chicken/
It's too bad, too, as if I cook pork, I like to use lard for searing. I guess I've have to sear in tallow or ghee.
@Cavenewt: "looking at the Similar Articles in the sidebar of these papers gives me the distinct impression that most researchers don't distinguish between different types of insulin resistance...?"
ReplyDeleteYes. I find it frustrating that discussions of insulin resistance almost never differentiate between chronic/systemic insulin resistance and short-term insulin resistance (of the type that might be induced by stearic or palmitic acid). And I sense that many researchers haven't yet clued in to the fact that short-term insulin resistance can be a healthy, adaptive part of a well-functioning metabolism (never mind that it might play a necessary role in burning body fat).
@ctviggen: I realized my mistake in listing lard, but I realized it too late and we can't edit comments once posted. (Apparently even Peter doesn't even have that godlike power.) Substitute beef suet. FWIW I've eliminated both pork and chicken, going to somewhat of an extreme due to recent cancer issue. If I'm wrong about PUFA? Well, no harm no fowl. Har.
ReplyDelete@Peter: Whew, then I'm on the right track toward understanding Protons.
Yes it's discouraging about the (possible? probable?) misunderstanding about short-term insulin resistance—but even more so about the poor demonized Complex I-derived ROS, given the current worship and merchandising of antioxidants.
Speaking of editing...just realized I meant @Jonathan instead of @Peter. Whoops.
ReplyDeleteCheers, tried the cocoa butter in a hot coffee drink with vanilla protein powder, hot milk, tasted good and seems satisfying for now , I can make a second for lunch if I am starving.. Going for OMAD but with carbs in the evening meal. As nice as it sounds eating croissants during the day I don’t think I would lose weight that way
ReplyDeletePeter, I’m not sure what the confusion is regarding safflower oil. The authors make it very clear in the abstract, “ A diet rich in polyunsaturated FAs seems to prevent myocellular lipid accumulation.”
ReplyDeleteFor those not acquainted, this post is meant as sarcasm.
I'm confused about the palm oil. From a F:N ratio perspective palmitic acid is up there with stearic acid. If palm oil is the one that fattens us (or just mice) the most, is it because it gets converted to palmitoleic acid? The PUFA content is (as noted) not really different from other oils that have less effect.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if we could replace stearic acid/cocoa butter with palm kernel oil. After looking at this study, maybe we shouldn't...
@Peter - re: Safflower oil
ReplyDeleteOnce again we have to realize that Safflower Oil is not a "thing", but a group of things - that varies more than a little..
From Fatty acid composition and tocopherol profiles of safflower (Carthamus tinctorius L.) seed oils
"The major fatty acid of safflower oil is linoleic acid, which accounted for 55.1 – 77.0% in oils, with a mean value of 70.66%..."
and
"In addition to linoleic acid, safflower oil contained higher amounts of oleic acid. The range of oleic acid was found between 12.45% (Iran) and 35.15% (USAa). The seed oils of safflower also contain appreciable amounts of saturated fatty acids, especially palmitic (5.7 – 6.81%) and stearic acids (1.88 – 2.57%)."
Really hard to see hard endpoints without chemically defined diets - we are drowning in a sea of cargo-cult science. A bottle of reagent grade linoleic acid runs about $75 (best to keep refrigerated to prevent oxidation) - pretty sure one can get it as an ester or FFA.
So how to think of the results - is it meaningful - or just noise - given the lack of a controlled experiment. There are way to many papers that 'muddy the water'...
Please define DBA.
ReplyDeleteGretchen — I wondered too, and can't find it in either cited paper. I think it might be a typo for DBI, double bond index. From the context, that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteHi Gretchen,
ReplyDeleteOpps, corrected
Peter
karl,
ReplyDeleteYep, there does seem to be something odd about safflower oil!
Peter
Hi Frunobulax, Palm oil is just under 10% linoleic acid, comparable to olive oil. I'd stick with butter or dripping/suet...
ReplyDeletePeter
cave,
ReplyDeleteNo one has really tried to alter cardiolipins much. Usually fat is about 10-20% of the diet and there is always plenty of linoleic acid available. Under these conditions it is mostly sucrose feeding which increases saturated fats in cardioloipins! Quite what would happen under a beef fat based ketogenic diet is anyone's guess at the moment (as far as I've read, following Barja's links and related articles)...
Peter
@Peter
ReplyDeleteI must admit that I haven't read all protons posts yet, as I'm fairly new here. So perhaps you can answer this by pointing to an older post :)
However, I wonder what happens to our metabolism if we mix fatty acids. Cocoa butter for example consists of oleic acid, palmitic acid and stearic acid, all having a fairly high F:N ratio, so using cocoa butter should be a good idea to achieve satiety and possibly weight loss. But if we add something like 10% linoleic acid, will we see an effect that is more an averaging (that is, the mix will still be pretty good) or does the linoleic acid win (perhaps it's metabolized first, so the 90% of other fats are stored while the mitochondria are burning the linoleic acid)? Of course this is a simplification... But the question is, which is more important: (1) Aim for a low content of fatty acids with bad F:N ratio, or (2) aim for a high content of fatty acids with a good F:N ratio? Palm oil would be "bad" if the answer is (1) but "good" if the answer is (2).
The implications would be fairly significant for the rating of oils like olive oil. Olive oil seems to have beneficial effects that may be due to the polyphenols, BDNF production and whatnot (that is, independent of the fatty acid composition) so it could be a good idea to consume some olive oil, even though I wouldn't use it as the staple fat in the diet.
OK. I know that there is a heavy perception bias with mediterran countries hosting a huge number of very nice workshops where researchers and journalists could essentially enjoy a free vacation if they wrote positively about olive oil and mediterranean diet. But I don't know any evidence that olive oil is actually bad (unlike other omega-6 heavy vegetable oils), so my impression is that olive oil (like many other things) may be beneficial if consumed in moderation.
Yes, Frunobulax, karl quite correctly argues that you should control your variables, certainly for basic physiology experiments. Look at elemental diets first, decide what the significance of the double bond index might be etc, predict what this implies for whole foods, compare your prediction with reality. Includes composing mixtures. On a single cell basis glucose of 25mmol/l plus palmitic acid triggers apoptosis or messy cell death. Adding any amount of oleate is protective. In the whole animal things are different (unless you are a SCD-1 k/o mouse).
ReplyDeleteIt is also almost impossible to imagine the bias in nutrition studies (Olive oil funding sources etc). It even creeps in to LC studies sometimes but in general LC studies have such a hard time to get accepted that they tend to be better than the usual dross......
Peter
@Frunobulax + Peter
ReplyDeleteI spent some time looking at Olive oil and the effect of polyphenols. My hunch (always be aware that we are in a sea of ungrounded-narratives) is that polyphenols don't make it to our bloodstream. This leaves a tantalizing possibility that their action is mostly in the intestinal flora and not readily absorbed. Quite possible that they are acting as chelating agents - bind to heavy metals so they simply pass on through. Heavy metal exposure is something I think we actually know is a 'bad-thing'(tm).
There are a number of things plants do to manage toxic metals - I've wondered (pure speculation here) if polyphenols play a role in their defense. If plants use polyphenols to defuse metal ion bombs - it might explain why cocoa sometimes has lead and cadmium - and is also full of polyphenols.
Plants have several things going on to deal with metals:
https://asknature.org/strategy/defensive-measures-prevent-toxicity-of-heavy-metals/
So my hunch is polyphenols do their bit of good by reducing toxic metal absorption - I could be wrong as the basic science awaits someone that knows what a single variable is.
This could easily be tested in a rodent diet study - not hard or expensive - metals are rather easy to measure in urine and feces.. I imagine a control group - a second diet with a bit of TEL or lead oxide added and a third group with a PURE chemically defined polypheol added.
cavenewt
ReplyDeleteI believe you said hard to get GF butter in US?
This is a source of raw GF butter from a fantastic dairy in California (of all places)
I love their cheese , cream, milk, butter.
https://www.organicpastures.com/raw-butter
Hint: it ain't cheap. Will ship outside of California I believe.
I spoke to soon. Organic Pastures has a statement indicating cannot/will not engage in any interstate commerce.
ReplyDeleteThat's too bad.
I know the CDPH has been out to their dairy a fair amount for various raw dairy scares.
As an alternative these products are extremely good..just not RAW.
https://www.organicvalley.coop/products/butter/pasture-butter/pasture-butter-cultured-1-lb-4-quarters/
I am looking for a cocoa butter chocolate "bar" which has a reliable high stearic acid content and not modified with "healthy" fats like palm kernel oil or other oils that still allow to call CB.
ReplyDeletethere are many bars in the store . But I am looking toward Lindt to be a good choice. Any suggestions.?
@karl The role of the microbiome is one of the most exciting things in recent research, at least to me. Gundrys latest book is a fairly comprehensive summary on that, although I strongly disagree with some of his conclusions. (He doesn't like meat, and he focuses very much on lectins and all but ignores the other antinutrients in plants.)
ReplyDeleteGut bacteria produce neurotransmitters and short-chain fatty acids that aim our immune system, mostly from polyphenols, soluble fiber and the like. There is quite a lot of discussion on whether we need fiber at all (Paul Mason and others argue that fiber is just the "antidote" to carbs, so you don't need it if you avoid carbs and eat a lot of meat), but I wouldn't be so fast. I noticed that any kind of meat is insulinogenic for me (I tried to go carnivore for 2 months and suffered exactly the same effects that people see with high carb diets, cravings, reduced base metabolic rate, frequent hunger), and I feel much better with a fiber-rich keto diet that comes out at maybe 150g meat/eggs per day.
That possibly why those weird mushrooms in traditional chinese medicine do work, they contain polyphenols and whatever our gut bacteria love. But we know little what exactly the different kinds of polyphenols do, and as usual people focus only on the presumably good stuff without considering the antinutrients. My take here is simply that we don't know enough to say either way. My gut feeling (no pun intended) is that it's always a question of the right mix, some polyphenols are good but we shouldn't drink 200ml olive oil a day or live off mushrooms...
@Hap commercial chocolate is usually either heavy on sugar or heavy on cocoa. Some people should be careful with cocoa because of the high oxalate content. (Not sure about premium brands.) Maybe that's the reason why chocolate/cocoa often causes restless legs symptoms.
ReplyDeleteI manufacture my own chocolate that is high in cocoa butter but limited in cocoa, with some lecithin, cocoa powder, sweetener and whatever I want to add like nuts or spices. You can do white chocolate by using dried milk powder instead of the cocoa powder.
@Hap 90% lindt is decent, as is the 99% (although much more expensive!). There's also Montezuma's which makes a few 100% dark chocolate bars (plain, orange and cocoa nibs, almond, and another I think).
ReplyDeleteUp until recently I ate between half and a whole 100g bar each day but stopped January 1st. I'm very glad I did as it turned out the chocolate was a major contributor to my gut issues! Turns out I don't do so well with dark chocolate and other histamine liberators, e.g. coffee, aged cheese, cured/smoked pork, etc.
Regarding your carnivore diet trial, do you remember what your fat intake was like compared to your protein intake, plus how much protein you were eating overall? From the symptoms you experienced, it sounds like you never found the right balance. Personally, I had all the same symptoms until I made sure that my fat intake was at least 1.5x my protein intake every day. I just need more fat than the majority of people and feel quite unwell with lean meat. I also need to make sure I don't consume too much protein (easier said than done) as this can exacerbate things too, so it's not just the ratio I need to keep in mind.
@Frunobulax - I might have a go at creating my own white chocolate with just cocoa butter, cream and a drop or two of vanilla extract. Then at least I'm not consuming the problematic cocoa powder and all the flavanols, methylxanthines, phytates, oxalates and phenethyamine that comes along with it. From your own experience, do you think fresh double cream as opposed to dried milk powder will still work?
@Pernickety It might not become solid enough with cream. Even with coconut oil the chocolate becomes very soft, but if you add something that contains water... The water might not bind to the cocoa butter (it won't in any case unless you add an emulsifier like lecithin). But there is no harm in trying with a small amount :)
ReplyDeleteHi everybody
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Hyperlipid for years, including all the comments, I was surprised recently to run across mention for the first time of mitochondrial fusion/fragmentation (thanks to comments over at fireinabottle.net and associated Croissant Diet Reddit). I'm dedicating part of today finding out more about that. Just curious, how important is mito fragmentation/fusion to Protons?
Incidentally, this may or may not have been mentioned lately: "Dietary stearic acid regulates mitochondria in vivo in humans" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05614-6 (free for now).
Hap, Frunobulax, & Pernickety
ReplyDeleteIn trying to achieve 2:1 fat to protein, I'm finally experimenting with fat bombs. Based on a recipe Peter posted long ago, my first attempt included equal parts cocoa butter, butter, and heavy cream (as it's called in the U.S.) Melt together, pour into ice cube tray and freeze or refrigerate. I mixed in a little bit of blended blueberries but did not include any other sweetener, having weaned myself over years from the need for sweetness. It's incredibly palatable. It did not separate; Croissant Brad has mentioned that butter is a mild emulsifier because it contains water, which would also apply to the cream. One could add a little bit of honey or cocoa if desired. I keep it in the refrigerator and have to exert some self-control not to consume too much.
I eat a couple of tablespoons of cocoa (cacao) nibs every morning, but if I have chocolate at night it keeps me awake. After discovering cocoa nibs, I no longer have any desire for commercial chocolate, even 90%. I'm wondering about the phytotoxins etc. that pure cacao may contain.
Re cardiolipins and PUFA, there's a lot of discussion on a 2017 Hyperlipid post, for instance this comment by Tucker at https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2017/03/protons-destruction-of-complex-i.html?showComment=1489267247730#c1183840466740146415:
ReplyDelete"Tucker Goodrich said...
"@Kenneth Strain:
"Cardiolipin (CL) composition is diet-dependent. On an industrial diet, that means a lot of LA, which is preferentially incorporated. LA is uniquely susceptible to oxidation in cardiolipin, replacing with other fats reduces that susceptibility. LA-rich CL is in constant contact with cytochrome c, and is oxidized by cyt c, producing ROS. It's also susceptible to ROS from complexes I and III. LA metabolites from CL oxidation like 4-HNE also oxidize LA in CL, which creates a self-perpetuating cascade.
"If you have CL that is oxidized, then adding fresh LA allows the body to repair, hence notion that LA is beneficial, as it's better than oxidized CL.
"The body contains antioxidants like glutathione and other processes to manage CL ox, problems arise when these are overwhelmed. Primary symptom of this is depletion of glutathione in affected tissues.
"This increases with age (and is intimately related to worsened aging process) because the LA metabolites produce damage DNA, protein and lipids throughout the cells, impairing cell function.
"I did two posts on cardiolipin and what happens, that answer a lot of your questions:
"http://yelling-stop.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-cause-of-metabolic-syndrome-excess.html
"and
"http://yelling-stop.blogspot.com/2016/02/how-to-prevent-oxidative-damage-in-your.html"
Cheers, tried the cocoa butter in a hot coffee drink with vanilla protein powder, hot milk, tasted good and seems satisfying for now , I can make a second for lunch if I am starving.. Going for OMAD but with carbs in the evening meal. As nice as it sounds eating croissants during the day I don’t think I would lose weight that way
ReplyDelete