The drug itself is of no interest as it will, without doubt, result in Unintended Consequences. But the GLP-1 agonists do seem to work as weight loss/diabetes management drugs, which is strange. The paper per se describes clinical work and looks to be written by clinicians so is unlikely to provide any sort of insight as to mechanism(s) of action.
It is worth thinking about how a drug which increases insulin synthesis, insulin reserves and insulin secretion in response to glucose might actually cause weight loss. Really, it shouldn't... Everything is against this. But it does.
it appears that the GLP-1 agonists activate the formation and preservation of new adipocytes, much as the glitazones do:
"These findings, combined with our results, strengthen the notion that GLP-1 or liraglutide regulate adipogenesis via suppression of apoptosis and stimulation of proliferation."
"These findings, combined with our results, strengthen the notion that GLP-1 or liraglutide regulate adipogenesis via suppression of apoptosis and stimulation of proliferation."
So the GLP-1 agonists stimulate adipose hyperplasia meaning you develop lots of small adipocytes which are much better able to act as a sump for calories. There appears to be a shift of fatty acids out of pre-existing hypertrophied adipocytes, and out of ectopic fat deposition sites too, and in to these spanking new baby adipocytes.
Why don't you get hungry and fat, as you do with the glitazone drugs?
You should do.
This paper used ob/ob mice (so caution)
GLP-1/GLP-1R Signaling in Regulation of Adipocyte Differentiation and Lipogenesis
and confirms the presence of those small adipocytes in white adipose tissue under GLP-1 agonists, a lack of visceral fat hypetrophy and, interestingly, a down-regulation of the gene for the fatty acid synthase enzyme, crucial for de novo lipogenesis. Not only are the mice used ob/ob but the "high fat" diet is unspecified, even following all three refs they cite as describing it. So even more caution about these people. But in both 3T3-L1 "adipocytes" and in real ob/ob adipocytes, fatty acid synthase gene expression is down regulated. Their suspicion is that suppressed de novo lipogenesis limits adipocyte hypertrophy. They have no insight as to why.
GLP-1/GLP-1R Signaling in Regulation of Adipocyte Differentiation and Lipogenesis
and confirms the presence of those small adipocytes in white adipose tissue under GLP-1 agonists, a lack of visceral fat hypetrophy and, interestingly, a down-regulation of the gene for the fatty acid synthase enzyme, crucial for de novo lipogenesis. Not only are the mice used ob/ob but the "high fat" diet is unspecified, even following all three refs they cite as describing it. So even more caution about these people. But in both 3T3-L1 "adipocytes" and in real ob/ob adipocytes, fatty acid synthase gene expression is down regulated. Their suspicion is that suppressed de novo lipogenesis limits adipocyte hypertrophy. They have no insight as to why.
Let's summarise:
GLP-1 agonists induce the production of large numbers of small, highly insulin sensitive adipocytes which don't become distended. They don't distend (probably) because fatty acid synthase gene expression is down-regulated. I consider this to be a flag for suppressed insulin signalling. Suppressed insulin signalling leads to a lean phenotype. So an insulin sensitising agent reduces insulin controlled gene expression to avoid obesity. WTF?
After this preamble let's get to an abstract which was the first hit of my PubMed search based on GLP-1, adipocyte and ROS:
I don't have the full text but the abstract alone is quite informative. Here are the relevant statements:
"Semaglutide enhanced multiloculation and uncoupled protein 1 (UCP1) labeling in obese mice [adipocytes] ..."
and
"Besides, semaglutide activated adipocyte browning, improving UCP1, mitochondrial biogenesis, and thermogenic marker expressions help weight loss."
"Semaglutide enhanced multiloculation and uncoupled protein 1 (UCP1) labeling in obese mice [adipocytes] ..."
and
"Besides, semaglutide activated adipocyte browning, improving UCP1, mitochondrial biogenesis, and thermogenic marker expressions help weight loss."
I think it is reasonable to accept that GLP-1 agonists activate uncoupling. We have know for a very long time, since the days of di-nitrophenol and more recently BAM15, that uncoupling reverses metabolic syndrome.
For the time being I will just leave it that GLP-1 agonists decrease insulin's action secondary to uncoupling. In this they are similar to the uncouplers DNP and BAM15 and also to metformin which blocks insulin's action, not by uncoupling but by blockade of the glycerophosphate shuttle. All work via decreased ROS generation.
Reduction of insulin signalling is intrinsic to weight loss.
Quite how decreasing insulin signalling via uncoupling can be made to show an increased insulin responsiveness (right down to the level of Akt phosphorylation) is an interesting question. I got part way through discussing this next using a paper on BAM15 but it made the current post so long and unwieldy that it needs a post of its own.
Peter
Throw away comment (I have not been through these papers!). Many people are reported to be using a GLP-1 agonist for weight control. It's probably working by activating/generating UCP-1, which is cool. At the same time it is generating lots and lots of new baby adipocytes, which stay small through uncoupling.
Currently the risk of promoting breast cancer by GLP-1 agonists is taken sufficiently seriously to have promoted a systematic review and meta-analysis to bury said risk:
Do GLP-1 Receptor Agonists Increase the Risk of Breast Cancer? A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis
Currently the risk of promoting breast cancer by GLP-1 agonists is taken sufficiently seriously to have promoted a systematic review and meta-analysis to bury said risk:
Do GLP-1 Receptor Agonists Increase the Risk of Breast Cancer? A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis
Sadly metabolic reality couldn't give an F about systematic review and meta-analysis:
Glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor activation by liraglutide promotes breast cancer through NOX4/ROS/VEGF pathway
Glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor activation by liraglutide promotes breast cancer through NOX4/ROS/VEGF pathway
and eventually these drugs will be withdrawn. So what will happen to folks with years of adipocyte hyperplasia, where individual cell hypertrophy has been suppressed? Their very numerous small adipocytes will, without their uncoupling drug, become enormous. People will become hungry as they develop hypertophy of all of those lovely tiny insulin sensitive adipocytes. Oops. It's gonnabe bad, but that's years down the road.
Hi, you might be interested in this
ReplyDeleteAccumulation of succinate controls activation of adipose tissue thermogenesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7045287/
It looks like working brown adipose tissue can dispose elevated succinate. If it not working properly, elevated succinate trigger HIF-1 so pseudohypoxia.
And this
Hepatocyte-specific HIF-1α ablation improves obesity-induced glucose intolerance by reducing first-pass GLP-1 degradation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6609217/
Jaromir
Hey Peter - very interesting.
ReplyDeleteRE: high-fat diet, the paper you cited cites Lu et al., 2012 (37), which cites Kim et al., 2011a (23), which provides composition in Table 1 (mostly lard). Though Lu et al., 2012 also cites Kim et al., 2011b (24), which has a different composition, also in Table 1 (all beef tallow?).
And the studies looking at the effects glp-1 agonist cessation demonstrate exactly what you'd expect 🤦
ReplyDeletecould you please share studies looking at GLP-1 agonist cessation? 🙏
DeleteIt's possible that the insulin stimulating effect of GLP-1 agonists is pleotropic, and that the base effect is through reducing oxidative stress.
ReplyDelete"Effects of Glucagon-Like Peptide-1 on Oxidative Stress and Nrf2 Signaling"
They're shown to reduce TBARS... (gotta love a paper that starts like this: "For the last two decades, the renal community has been mentally sliding into depression and nihilism."):
"Inflammation and Oxidative Stress in Diabetic Kidney Disease: The Targets for SGLT2 Inhibitors and GLP-1 Receptor Agonists"
"Indeed, liraglutide increased the renal activity of both adenyl cyclase and PKA as compared to vehicle-treated KK/Ta Akita mice, and these effects were abolished with concomitant use of SQ22536 and H-89. DHE fluorescence, TBARS renal level, NADPH activity and Nox4 expression were significantly higher, whereas NO content was markedly reduced in KK/Ta Akita mice. All these effects were corrected in liraglutide-treated animals (but not in those receiving liraglutide with SQ22536 or H-89) [100]."
OxStr via some of our favorites like MDA (detected in TBARS) and HNE induces many of the effects whose resolution is attributed to GLP-1, such as reduced insulin secretion and insulin resistance; and obesity et al., but particularly impairs adipocyte hyperplasia, and as it happens, uncoupling. At low levels HNE increases it, as we have discussed, but it turns out that at higher levels it decreases it dramatically. At high enough concentrations, it blocks the effect of DNP completely, for instance.
"The Effect of the Lipid Peroxidation Product 4-Hydroxynonenal and of its Metabolite 4-Hydroxynonenoic Acid on Respiration of Rat Kidney Cortex Mitochondria"
Fascinating little diversion!
The GLP-1 agonist discussion rang a faint bell, and I found it in a recent Mike Eades post about a popular new Hollywood weight-loss drug called Wegovy. According to Eades: 'When certain foods reach the lower end of the small bowel, they stimulate the release of [incretin hormone, normally released in the lower part of the GI tract in response to food] from cells in the small bowel... The hormone travels through the blood to the pancreas where it stimulates the release of insulin and inhibits the release of glucagon. And it feeds back on the GI tract to slow down the transit of food, which makes you feel full and less hungry.' https://michaeleades.substack.com/p/the-arrow-102
ReplyDeleteHe follow this up with information from Richard Nikoley in https://michaeleades.substack.com/p/the-arrow-103
'So what will happen to folks with years of adipocyte hyperplasia, where individual cell hypertrophy has been suppressed?' That makes me wonder if there's some kind of cancer somewhat analogous to myeloproliferative neoplasms (a type of blood cancer), only involving adipocytes instead of blood cells. Or maybe they're inventing it as we speak...? Unintended Consequences, indeed.
Hi mct4health, interesting, Nick Lane has quite a lot to say about succinate being a key component of the TCA, I must go back and see how he fitted it in to ageing and death. But central...
ReplyDeleteThanks Bob, only used the three links in the first "layer". I doubt the diet actually matters too much so long as it has just enough LA to allow the ob/ob mice to become obese. But the study is left as almost unrepeatable from multiple methods sections. Sort of "Trust us". Hmmmmm.
Hi Kyle, well who would have imagined anyone stopping such a wonder drug?????? Ta.
Tucker, yes, uncoupling is fundamentally anti inflammatory. If one takes my point of view that LA allows excess calories in to a cell then the problem is reductive stress due to a surfeit of (mostly) NADH. High membrane potential is a major driver of ROS. Uncoupling is ant-inflammatory under these circumstance. All of the debris (MDA, 4HNE etc) are clearly important but the core problem is the supply of NADH in excess of ATP needs. Have a nice paper about injecting oligomycin in to rat stifle joints. Ouch.
The renal paper would need some careful study to see how it fits with the more recent papers suggestion 4HNE is a promoter of fatty acid mediated uncoupling. Abstract looks interesting.
Overall distended adipocytes are generating large amounts of ROS and stop doing so with GLP-1 agonism. Uncoupling is a nice explanation!
Peter
I see someone has linked to Mike Eades' post about Wegovy and what I was coincidentally finding at the same time with yacon tubers (easy on the carb counter, too) totally by accident. I got them only because they're delicious and have a crisp texture that's fantastic. I get a 5 kilo box delivered the 1,500 km from Chiang Mai to Phuket for under $5 US, including shipping.
ReplyDeleteHere's the whole story on that if anyone's interested.
https://www.freetheanimal.com/2022/12/very-expensive-wegovy-weight-loss-drug-duplicated-by-a-cheap-andean-tuber.html
Given that the dramatic weight loss so quickly is so similar, I'm wondering if the mechanism is the same/similar. Not holding my breath for studies to that effect, though.
Interesting and curious mechanism underlying Wegovy. One supposes that if you're flush enough to shell out $1,500 US per month for it, you'll just keep doing that. Maybe self-limiting for those who can't, anyway.
But the tubers (and syrup derived) have doubtless been consumed in the Andes foreverish, so there's that.
Richard, I've no real thoughts re yacon tubers but the GLP-1 agonists are taking a signalling molecule and extending its normally ephemeral period of action to peak level, non stop and without break for as long as your money holds out. Expecting this to be okay is insanity...
ReplyDeletePeter
Peter, I've no thoughts regarding the GLP-1 agonist drugs...no intention of taking them, recommending them, or even calling attention to them...except to say that the trail they did on the yacon syrup had a remarkably similar profound weight loss in remarkably short time-span as the Wegovy drug.
ReplyDeleteAnd it has the advantage of a "forever trial" population wise amongst Andeans from Columbia to Northern Argentina and about the only adverse side-effect you can find is that in excess they can really make you fart up a storm, to which I can attest and which, equally, can be quite a kick and that's not even so insane...
Therefore, that's what I'd suggest folks could give a try. Curious "fruit" that it is.
A little tangential, but I ran across an argument that lab mice are bred to provide positive pharmaceutical results. https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2022/12/31/drug-regulation-how-does-it-work/#comment-261578
ReplyDeleteBret Weinstein wrote a paper that Jackson lab mice have developed long telomeres and able to fix or repair tissue from damage. The trade off is more tumors.
ReplyDeleteWe don’t know if Jackson has changed its breeding to account for this issue or not.
Upshot….drug adverse events are underestimated
Hap and cave, yes Bl/6 mice are a poor test bed, but triple negative breast cancer cells are not mouse cells so their localised environment will be abnormal mice but the cancer cells are still distant derivatives of human derived cancer cells. Admittedly exposed to chronic hyperglycaemia for decades...
ReplyDeletePeter
Is a substance that promotes the release of GLP-1 functionally the same as these GLP-1 agonist drugs in terms of their adipogenesis? I wonder if GLP-1 proper and the *glutide agonists/mimics have different mechanisms of action, still reading through glucagon.com
ReplyDeleteDoes GLP-1 itself promote adipose hyperplasia, and is this reversible?
Geoff
Hi gjl,
ReplyDeleteYou have to ask yourself what GLP-1 is doing within physiology. My guesses are "yes" and "who knows?". Adipogenesis is part of physiology, as is adipocyte apoptosis. Putting the two processes massively out of balance will turn out to be a booboo. Also re long term effects; we don't seem to worry about insulin being anabolic until the massive sustained hyperinsulinaemia of DMT2 turns out to be associated with multiple types of cancer. Wellwhodathunkit? So GLP-1 agonists at supraphysiologically sustained duration of action will lead to what? Hmmmm...
Peter
Geoff,
ReplyDeleteJust to add: My current feeling is that GLP-1 agonism is dealing with the acute excess calories after a meal. *All* full sized meals supply supra physiological levels of calories for the current moment. How do you deal with that? Stop the eating process. Activate the storage hormone (insulin). Generated space to store the excess calories (adipogenesis). It's an overlay to insulin signalling, insulin going back to the common ancestor of ourselves and sponges, say slightly less than a couple of billion years. And of course insulin is just an overlay on ROS. So today we use a drug acting at three (at least) layers above the core problem and leave the core problem unaddressed... Sounds like medicine!
P
"Putting the two processes massively out of balance will turn out to be a booboo."
ReplyDeleteThat's a brilliant restating of Bret Weinstein's warnings about messing with complex systems—systems which seem to be completely ignored in modern medicine and other fields.