I've been skirting around this subject for years and I still do not have nice solid answers but this is getting closer.
It's worth thinking, initially, about fructose as a weight loss agent.
Inclusion of low amounts of fructose with an intraduodenal glucose load markedly reduces postprandial hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia in the conscious dog
Going back to this canine model of intraduodenal glucose infusion +/- 5% fructose we have these curves:
Inclusion of low amounts of fructose with an intraduodenal glucose load markedly reduces postprandial hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia in the conscious dog
Going back to this canine model of intraduodenal glucose infusion +/- 5% fructose we have these curves:
The fructose supplemented line (open circles) shows a markedly reduced insulin excursion, a direct result of the reduced penetration of glucose past the liver. Fructose, acting solely at the liver, is imitating insulin via ROS from an NADPH oxidase. Glucose gets stored:
The pancreas sees a markedly reduced glucose level, so responds with a markedly reduced insulin secretion (200pmol/l down to 100pmol/l).
If you were an adipocyte in the periphery you are not going to see the fructose acting as insulin via ROS to sequester glucose as hepatic glycogen. This all happens in the liver. All an adipocyte sees is 100pmol/l of insulin instead of 200pmol/l.
What is that going to do to your rate of lipolysis?
I would expect it to be higher in the fructose supplemented state.
Aside. There is s small rise in lactate with the fructose infusion but I doubt it would offset an halving of the insulin level. End aside.
Does this cause weight loss? I don't know that anyone has asked that question in this form for humans using fructose.
Acetate, which I consider to induce a similar signalling response to fructose, certainly does. Drinking vinegar for weight loss appears to work. The effect is not huge but appears real and is mechanistically logical:
Vinegar intake reduces body weight, body fat mass, and serum triglyceride levels in obese Japanese subjects
Vinegar intake reduces body weight, body fat mass, and serum triglyceride levels in obese Japanese subjects
So maybe fructose is a weight loss drug, in modest amounts, on a background of a starch/linoleic acid diet.
So if we get back to medium chain triglycerides for weight loss, here they used either coconut oil or MCT oil (both worked):
You can get a marked decrease of weight gain in a (mouse) model of lard-driven obesity by small amounts of MCTs.
Like fructose and to some extent acetate, low doses of MCTs are predominantly diverted directly to the liver via the portal vein from the gut. If they generate modest doses of ROS, ie at insulin mimetic levels, in the liver alone, they will allow the diversion of glucose in to hepatic storage and so reduce penetration of glucose to the systemic circulation and that will reduce the need for insulin secretion. Peripheral adipocytes will see less insulin and so store less, or release more, fatty acids.
To me that makes sense. Increasing hepatic insulin-like signalling derived from very modest MCT ROS generation protects the peripheral adipocytes from glucose/insulin exposure.
Exposure to higher levels of MCTs, ie Surwit-like diets, is undoubtedly obesogenic.
As we increase the proportion of MCTs in the diet this gut-to-liver channel increases delivery giving increased storage of glucose as hepatic glycogen (no problem) and an attempt at hepatic storage of MCT fatty acids. But MCTs aren't stored, they are rapidly oxidised to give ketones plus mitochondrially derived ROS. At high enough exposure there will be enough ROS to finally resist insulin signalling within the hepatocytes.
Hepatic insulin resistance allows more insulin to penetrate past the liver to the systemic circulation and so to reach peripheral adipocytes. It's not essential for MCTs per se to reach those adipocytes in any quantity, though if they do so at insulin mimetic levels they will compound the problem.
Back in March this year I pointed out how mixed coconut MCTs at "physiological" concentration are experimentally confirmed generators of ROS at a level which will phosphorylate Akt in isolated neurons, insulin mimesis. I was also clear that "supra-physiological" exposure to octanoate inhibited correct development of adipocytes, ie caused insulin resistance. These effects applied to hepatocytes, which are the primary target of dietary MCTs, would be quite enough to explain the Surwit effects and weight loss effects, depending on dose.
Summary: Low dose MCTs are insulin-mimetic and primarily delivered to the liver only. They protect peripheral adipocytes from insulin exposure and allow weight loss/limit weight gain.
High dose MCTs provide insulin resistance levels of ROS in hepatocytes and facilitate insulin's penetration to peripheral adipocytes. Any low levels of MCTs reaching peripheral adipocytes will provide low levels of ROS to augment fat storage by insulin per se.
It is perfectly possible to generate obesity with highly saturated MCT based diets. Even at 2% linoleic acid.
Peter
Peter, interesting, how about extracelular catalase? Or oxygen availability? I see elevated HIF1 as part of all problems, so less oxygen, more ROS from mitochondria, but more extracelular catalse, more NOX but less signal. And nitrite+H2O2 can deactivate extracellular catalase. So nitrite availability can be crucial.
ReplyDeleteYes, why not? But I'm dealing with a general principle of the Surwit type diets. What ever tweaks evolution has put in place will, without any doubt, be congruent with these core concepts...
ReplyDeletePeter
"It is perfectly possible to generate obesity with highly saturated MCT based diets. Even at 2% linoleic acid."
ReplyDeleteOnly if 4-HNE is present.
“These data provide strong evidence for a critical role of toxic aldehydes accumulation and defective ALDH2 activity in the pathogenesis of obesity, diabetes, and fatty liver disease.”
doi.org/10.21203/rs.3.rs-104384/v1
It's possible the ALDH activity is having some effect on MCTs also, but I've not looked to see if that is the case.
Peter, thanks!
ReplyDeleteAn amazing astounding astonishing series of reflections and deductions.
The old chestnut --- faced with a biochem question to which the answer was unknown " Just write NO" (wrt ubiquitous nitric oxide. )
Now becomes: "Just write NOX"
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy first thought after reading this post was: Kitavans! (and their high-starch, high-coconut oil diet)
ReplyDeleteWith your explanation in mind: they must have been introducing low doses of MCTs to their liver, which increased hepatic glycogen storage, reduced glucose in periphery, and thus minimized insulin signaling at the adipocytes, resulting in a healthy body composition.
Is that right?
whoops, i should've said high coconut diet. that brings up a point - could their diet have "worked" if it was a high coconut OIL diet?
ReplyDeleteYou can get fat on lauric acid, at least in the liver. I think gaining fat is not itself bad, but if the cell don't produce enough CO2 by PDH Complex (carbohydrates) or IDH2 (fats) to breathe, glutathion recycling and H2O2 signaling don't work as it should and hypoxia is expressed. This is bad and only in this case NO and nitrite/nitrate takes place. And by the way NO can suppress both OXPHOS and ALDH2.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nature.com/articles/s12276-020-0379-z
So we have different levels of insulin + insulin-mimetics between liver vs adopicytes tissues.
ReplyDeleteI also think sensitivities between the tissues also varies.
So for the mimetics - I think we know that acetate resulting from oxidation of ethanol is a major factor in causing hangovers - fructose as well?
I think this is fructose/ethanole => Adenosine => pain sensitivity ? Adenosine is thought to be cytoprotective - adenosine has 4 different receptors - effects the BBB - long list of effects ( another rabbit hole with no end of unanswered questions).
I have a huge problem of keeping track of all the interactions - some unimportant - some important - some so so important - producing a huge mess of nested feedback loops etc..
But back to insulin-mimetics - this confounds things a bit more for me. How can I get a handle on the magnitude of these effects?
,.,.
At some point, the health problems of modernity get back to life-style-hacks-gone-wrong™ (such hacks can be thought as a form of transhumanism) and what heuristics might best protect us from unintended consequences of eating industrialized foods - CIAB. If I avoid anything that comes in a bag or box or with a food additive label I might be avoiding things that don't matter - but seems like the best rule of thumb for now - prudent.
Hi Tucker, I spent quite some time on several ALDH publications but can’t recall what conclusions I came to! Don’t think I ever blogged about it. BTW there are various roles for -OH derivatives of octanoate as signalling molecules which may overlap with 4-HNE. And if you can get octanoate to peripheral adipocytes it shows the classic low dose -> obesogenic, high dose -> inhibited lipogenesis. ROS mediated of course. My impression is that 4-HNE, like 13-HODE and 9-HODE are normal critical signalling molecules, interfere at your cost. Not that evolution cares about the end results of the occasional trial mutation…
ReplyDeletePass and Jaromir,
Ah good old NO. And NOX
raphi, The Kitavans are definitely high on my list of things to think about. If you keep the MCTs well below the Surwit levels maybe you just get the beneficial hepatic effects? But the responses to MCTs are sufficiently “U” shaped to offer some insight.
karl, this is why I try to keep it simple. What can be understood by the role of a loose electron on an FeS cluster with an O2 molecule in the vicinity?
Both alpha proteobacteria and archaea used this pre eukaryotes. The 200mV membrane voltage was invested in the mitochondria from the alpha proteobacterium. The host archaea dropped the membrane voltage to a few mV as it wasn’t performing OxPhos. But it still needs superoxide to signal to grow. Hence NOXs being a eukaryote invention.
Both mitochondria and NOXs signal growth, division, death by ROS. In a mitochondrion ROS -> divide = lots of mitochondria, like a pipistrel bat when compared to a shrew. Lots of mitos, run a tickover unless needed for flight, bat lives 30 years, shrew lives around 1 year (unless my cat eats it). At the cell membrane NOX -> ROS = grow and divide, or die. We call that one cancer…. ROS simplify everything.
Peter
"My impression is that 4-HNE, like 13-HODE and 9-HODE are normal critical signalling molecules, interfere at your cost."
ReplyDeleteAgreed.