Sunday, January 04, 2009

Maternal Diet Affects Offspring Preferences

OMG it's true!




I should have snapped an up to date pic of him demolishing either my egg yolks or my cream today, but the camera was out of reach and I was trying to keep the bulk of the cream off of the carpet in the sitting room! Had other concerns about no lunch left for me too. Anyway...

I've been trying to make head or tail of this study, sent to me by a couple of people off blog.

It's not easy. There is no information about what was done, physiologically, to the mothers of the metabolically damaged rat pups. If you don't know that, you can't work back to what the intrauterine environment was likely to have been for the rat pups. The logical conclusion seems to be that you should not eat, when pregnant, a 50% fat diet if the rest of your non protein calories are a sucrose, maltodextrin and corn starch mix. Probably you shouldn't eat huge amounts of it either. That's a reasonable approach to life in general. If sucrose derived fructose causes hepatic insulin resistance, with hyperglycaemia from the readily available glucose, you are not going to burn fat very well. But I can't get at the data from the earlier studies by this group to see what the physiology of the dams was like.

But one of the references they did cite, which does have full text access, was this one with a beautiful summing up in the conclusion (I just love the beacon carried by the word "inappropriate" and the phrase "looked as thin as"). Talk about nailing your colours to the mast:

"In summary, this study in Wistar rats gives evidence of a metabolic imprinting of the progeny born to dams fed an inappropriate high-fat diet since 6 wk before mating, which did not became overtly obese before gestation and even lost more body weight than control dams at the end of lactation. The long-term metabolic consequence of this maternal imprinting was an altered hypothalamic leptin signaling in male and female offspring which, however, looked as thin as controls in adulthood, even when weaned onto the HF diet"

That's pretty awful. Deranged leptin signalling. And that's just on 40% fat. Imagine the awful effects of our 70-80% fat diet on our son.... Arghhhhhhh. Oh, but despite deranged leptin signaling neither the mothers nor their offspring became obese, even following the offspring through to adulthood on a high fat diet.... Hmmmmmm

So let's just skip the biased discussion and have a look in the RESULTS section. If we ignore the really clever stuff about STAT-3 signaling and gene expression, what are the end results in terms that we might observe in my son?

Table 3 of the results section is here.

First it's males at the top and females at the bottom. We want the left hand column throughout for the rats fed mostly on sugar (maternally in pregnancy and as their post weaning diet) and the extreme right hand column for the rats fed fat throughout the study. You can browse the middle columns if you want to see what crossovers do, but let's keep it simple. Many of the changes do not reach statistical significance. Just look at the trends in these small groups.

Males: High fat diet produces:

An extra 7g of body weight out of 350ish grams. Bad? Biologically significant? I weighed 120lb as a teenager. Obesity angst at 123lb? I think not.

LOWER triglycerides, probably Good.

LOWER cholesterol (who cares? But these researchers should have considered this Good)

HIGHER glucose, probably Bad, but remember physiological insulin resistance in HF feeding.

LOWER insulin. Very Good.

HIGHER leptin, hence the conclusions. Bad, but not very much higher and well within physiological limits

LOWER HOMA score. This is Very Good.

In the females the high fat feeding results are pretty much the same as or better than the chow fed rats. Especially the HOMA estimate of insulin sensitivity.

So in this study offspring of the 40% fat fed dams, fed a 40% fat diet themselves, did pretty well compared to those fed 4% fat.

How does this lead the the conclusions reached by the researchers? I dunno.

More importantly, how did the New York group (Chang et al) manage to successfully mangle the metabolism of a group of pups fed 50% fat vs those fed 25% fat? How can 40% be as good or better than 4%, but 50% be worse than 25%?

Well, I don't know. One of life's mysteries.

But I'm impressed at the skill of the Chang et al in managing to develop a model which holds up their preconceptions.

Presumably, if the study of Chang et al is correct, it explains why the Masai, Inuit and Tokelau islanders all died out of obesity when they started eating more than 40% of their calories from fat on a real food diet.

Oh, they didn't?

Back to drawing board then.

But I still wonder how she did it (Chang, that is).

Oh, and the other seriously important conclusion is that a high fat diet perinatally produces what looks to be a neurotransmitter pattern for fat preference. This is considered to be a Bad Thing. But not by me. A fat preference is a GOOD THING.

Remember Sweden! "Healthy 4 year-olds who eat lots of fat weigh less" and "More fat linked to less weight in kids study". Are you still fat phobic?

Now a sucrose preference... That would be bad, but non exposure just might lead to non preference. I hope so, but I'm not expecting Chang to find out for me.

Peter

52 comments:

Bryan - oz4caster said...

Haha !! Living testament, yes! Cream and eggs ARE good. I have a raw milk, raw cream, raw egg, and raw cocoa powder drink for breakfast most days.

joshua said...

I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


Deborah

Term Life Insurance

Stephan said...

Hey Peter

The composition of the high-fat diet is critical, as fat accumulation depends in part on the amount of LA in the diet. LA intake during development (and n-3 as well) determines fat tissue development as well. N-6 derived eicosanoids promote adipocyte proliferation and enlargement! I have a hard time taking these high-fat rodent studies seriously though, because rodents just don't seem to react to it the same as humans. Rodents often (but not always) gain weight on a high-fat diet, whereas overweight humans will lose weight. Even if the fat is tallow and the diet is otherwise not awful.

Although one of my favorites is a study where investigators tried to create a model of hepatic steatosis by overfeeding rats butter or coconut oil. Not only did they not develop steatosis, but butter rats ate ~40% more calories and coconut rats ate some ~150% more than controls, without gaining weight. Ha. It was done in a French lab, fitting non? I love that, because rats overfed LA-rich seed oils get steatosis readily just like humans do. The high fat rats did gain some fat mass though.

"High-fat diet" as the sole descriptor of a diet should be stricken from the scientific literature. I recently wrote a letter to the editor to the journal Obesity about an article that used a "high-fat diet" to induce steatosis in rats. Well if you bother reading the methods section, they were feeding the rats peanuts, milk chocolate and sweet biscuits!! I suggested they mention the fact that it was high in LA and sucrose outside the methods section. It's hard work wading through papers like that. You have to second-guess every little piece. Often the diet's specific composition is buried two references deep. I think they're going to end up publishing the letter, so at least there is sanity left in the world.

I love the idea of maternal imprinting, it all comes back to Weston Price!

B said...

But I still wonder how she did it (Chang, that is).

Why not ask her? Here's the contact info for the lab:

Rockefeller Behavioral Neurobiology Lab

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elizabeth said...

Hi Peter - thanks for responding earlier- I am getting the hang of this now... maybe!

Two questions if that is OK:
1) what does actually happen when I drink a glass of wine/champagne? How does it actually impact the fat buring? I am not clear on this as the carbohydrate is very low in a glass of champagne...

2) I am eating a fair amount of 99% Lindt chocolate right now which is very low carb and very tasty. Seems to be in perfect ratio of OD - 13g protein, 50g fat and 8g carbs for 100g of choco. I don't get a horrible reaction to the carbs in this- have only 50g at a time which seeems to be ideal.
Should I have it as is or should I add extra fat to it when I eat it- it should be OK shouldn't it or is the carbs in it too high for comfort? If I add extra fat to it will that react negatively to the carbs in the chocolate? ie - push fat into fat cells but keep it there? Not quite sure - all the PUFA stuff is very confusing to me... I guess this choco has a fair amount of PUFAs in it as opposed to Sats ... thank you

Thanks,


2)

ItsTheWooo said...

Hmmm doesn't sound like much changed for the rats. What basis do they have for the claim that leptin signaling was altered? Is it because leptin levels were higher? It's possible that could simply be an effect of higher body weight and higher glucose levels (both of which tend to increase leptin). I do find it strange leptin was higher and insulin was lower... that almost never happens together, unless we're talking about major increased body fat. Insulin is a good predictor of leptin and vice versa (insulin acting on fat cells stimulates leptin synthesis, is why; this has led to the oft-repeated myth that the obese are leptin resistant because obese people have very high leptin levels... in reality leptin levels merely suggest the state of inulinemia).


I've read other research that suggests leptin levels during the perinetal period seem to program the metabolism of rats post natal.

Since high fat feeding always induces metabolic syndrome in rats, this logically translates into hyperinsulinemia thus hyperleptinemia thus altered metabolism of offspring.


The problem in all of this research is that it ties the outcome to the FAT itself, when the real problem is metabolic syndrome. Fat, under certain conditions, may trigger the metabolic syndrome (e.g. adding cheese and beef to your bread is probably going to raise blood sugar and insulin a hell of a lot more than if you ate bread alone).

This is not the same thing as concluding that fat CAUSES the metabolic syndrome. Fat is like fuel, carbs are like a spark. You can have a bed of oily rags and you only ever have a problem if you're near sparked matches, you know? If anything causes the metabolic syndrome, it's all of the insulinogenic sugar food fed to rats and humans alike.

Most of this research is actually good... if only they could clean their glasses and realize the fat isn't the problem, it's the metabolic syndrome, and carbs are much more closely involved in that than is dietary fat.

Stan (Heretic) said...

Hi Peter,

I saw that study first on drmcdougall.com forum posted as the scientific "proof" that a "high fat" diet can "damage" a fetal neural system! What is really interesting, is that it is the first time that an "iheritance of acquired characteristics" has been shown by a study to be physically programmed into a specie! I love the heretical aspect of it! 8-:)

Stephan,

Not only Weston A. Price may have mentioned it (though I am not exactly sure where and in what context). What has really triggered my curiosity is that Dr. Jan Kwasniewski (of Optimal Diet) wrote about that explicitly in his "Homo Optimus" book! How did he know that? Since that rat paper was just published last year (Nov-2008), Kwasniewski must have been either a lucky guesser or he must have used other sources! It is not the first time. I am very curious what were his sources?

Regards,
Stan (Heretic)

elizabeth said...

Hi All - please can someone tell me how the following would work. If you eat 99%CHOCO with 4g carbs, 25g fat and 8g protein - ie 50g choco and with it you have a big chunk of butter and a cup of heavy cream, then, what actually happens in the body as the 4g carbs and teh extra in the cream are digested. It is fine when it is pure protein and fat - then, carbs are so low. But, what does happen when you have the chocolate, the fat and perhaps a glass of pinot noir and the carbs end up at around 6g for a meal. I am very happy to eat a huge amount of fat and from all sources BUT.. when it gets mized with some very low level of carbs - ie - 4 g, which is pretty damn low in a meal - then, can you really eat that level of 100g fat as well at the same time?
Optimal Dietsays never mix the fat and the carbs - does under 10 g of carbs at a time count as mixing these - is very difficult to think how to do this? I guess cream and hot choclate is the same question.

A tad confused - well, not unusal with these issues - is tricky to work out how to add any6 carbs at all and I hate the fibre from teh veggies - , see, happy eating carbs in choco and cream etc but... what happens to them and teh shift of fat in and out of the fat cells?

Thanks.. sorry if this is too tedious for you to repeat again in laymans terms. If so, just say so and point me in the right direction. 99% choco is not something you guys seem to use, guess there is a reason, I like the tast of it - Lindt is very good, but, I guess you find it spikes insulin, it is fibrous and does blow me up. As s does coconut too mind you...

Eliza

so congfused on thiso manage the carbws weitplease can someome tell me how to eat the fat ie, with what?

For example,

Robert M. said...

Elizabeth:

Don't sweat a small amount of carbs. The amount of stress and anxiety your are generating over it is more harmful than any minor insulin reaction it might cause.

Peter said...

Amen Robert,

Anywhere between 30 and 50 g/d of carbs seems fine. I would personally avoid zero or >100g/d. But stressing about each gram is likely to spike your cortisol more than zero carbing.... Long term Lutz, Groves and JK all go for 50-70g/d. Just so long as your gut can take it.

Fat with carbs, fat without carbs, just eat meals. If you eat LC your liver will cope fine carbs up to 50g/d.

Peter

Peter said...

B,

An in teresting idea but I'm not really interested in how they did it. In fact, to follow on from ItsTheWoo, the research is probably quite valid for people eating a diet based around sucrose and HFCS as primary caloric sources. I believe this is not uncommon nowadays and undoubtedly people can break themselves and their children with Fanta and a burger in a bun with extra chips fried in soya oil. With extra cola and a sucrose based ice cream to follow.

My beef is about calling this a high fat diet, in the terms of healthy humans eating healthy high fat diets. That's a matter of mindset and I'm not up to working on one researcher at a time, assuming they were able to listen...

Peter

Peter said...

Stephan,

Yes, you do have to second guess everything and wade two refs deep. And a lot of the refs are to review articles and their refs are several deep to get any data. Arghhh.

Good luck on the letter to the editor front.

Peter

Peter said...

Elizabeth,

Re alcohol, it seems to get burned before any fat can be burned. It's toxic, so has to go as a priority.

As always, some is fine and not something to stress about.

Peter

elizabeth said...

Hey Peter,

Can I ask two things - I take EPA dosage each day but no DHA. I have desperately dry eyes in the morning on waking - can't barely get tem open. I drink lots of water, do not touch gluten - .. so, what you reckon - too much EPA??

Also, what do you reckon on the 99% choco I am having daily - about 50 g a day - details of one bar courtesy of Mr Lindt which by the way everyone, is truly delicious - 4g carbs, 7g proteinh(high) and 25g fat in one bar.

Did you find it made you very hungry after eating it? Or do you suppose the cream you have with it stopped that? I do have it with butter - are the PUFAs etc in it really bad for me? I do not understand teh PUFA bit at all. Have printed off teh wedton price articles on PUFas today so, guess will plow thourhg those tonight- after kids homework on electrical circuits! I think the circuits might be easier...

elizabeth said...

Sorry about the appalling spelling - typing so rapidly in the office and never get time to check what I write - sorry.

Chainey said...

Hi Peter

Long time, no comment.

Thought I'd let you know that I found a satisfactory solution to the coffee problem I was whining about ages ago. To recap, the upshot of my complaint was that coffee was the only remaining vector for refined sugar in my diet, but I couldn't give coffee up and couldn't stomach it without sugar (actually, condensed milk for convenience) and this was driving me crazy.

The answer came by accident: I decided that if I couldn't beat my coffee habit, I could at least reduce the expense by buying my own espresso machine. (I used a plunger, AKA "french press" at home, but mostly bought cafe-made).

So I scouted out a machine with excellent reviews and waited till it was on sale then bought it.

I started off making coffee to my usual taste - i.e. steamed milk and sugar - and found to my considerable surprise that I much preferred it to the cafe-produced version (even though they have those gigantic machines and trained "baristas").

So I thought I'd try it with steamed milk and no sugar and found it quite tolerable. Then I moved on to just adding hot water to the shot (a so-called "Americano" AKA a "long black") and found that this also was quite palatable - certainly not the acrid stew I'd previous experienced as "black" coffee.

I also noticed I didn't get the same "kick" (and therefore not the same subsequent low) but that my addiction, chemical and behavioural, was fed adequately.

I'm not going to pretend I enjoy it without sugar as much as I did with, but maybe one day I will. In the meantime I'm content.

When your eyes have recovered from this narrative assault I'll update you on other aspects of my progress.

elizabeth said...

Good morning this rather chilly Saturday am. Geneva is covered in snow and after a very frantic rush at 6am to get our daughter to the airport to go to London we are now recovering over a steaming coffee, and me - the computer.

I have a question related to insulin response. I can't believe cream does not have an effect on insulin - looked at the table you posted a while back Peter showing you can eat lard/butter etc or a cup of cream and not budge insulin response. Well, I just looked at the table myself and insulin does shift, especially with the casein. Is that why you ferment the cream - to get rid of the casein? when you ferment to reduce the protein that is what you are doing? Very confused here on the fermenting issue and why you do it - after perusing though old comments I think a few people are confused on this one also.

Maybe the point is the insulin shift as shown in the table is tiny? Is that right? The reason for the query is - I am pretty sure I probably don't have a well working hormone sensitive Lipase (HSL)mechanism going on. How would I know?

As I am using alot of full fat cream right now I wondered on the insulin effects - that, and of course, the other thing was th chocolate I posted about. I get ravenous after it and want more, it is 100% cacoa but still, I guess it is from a vegetable so, raises the old insulin... what's new huh?

Any feedback welcome,

Swiss Miss, Elizabeth

mark said...

Blaylock thinks that EPA is a powerful immune suppressant and that DHA is good.

"The EPA component of fish oils (omega-3 oils) is also a powerful immune suppressant. DHA is not."

From:
http://web.mac.com/rblaylock/Russell_Blaylock_M.D./Information/Entries/2008/3/12_Vaccines%2C_Depression_and_Neurodegeneration_After_Age_50%3A_Another_Reason_to_Avoid_the_Recommended_Vaccines..html

Mark.

Peter said...

Hi Elizabeth,

The cream/casein insulin issue is undoubtedly related to the casein, either an opioid effect from peptides the casein of an insulinogenic effect of the amino acid composition per se. Probably the later predominates, especially if you have normal digestion. The casein content of double cream is quite low compared to milk as the bulk of the casein is in the water fraction, which is removed from the cream and sold as skimmed milk. Disgusting stuff. So no, it's not why I ferment the cream.

I ferment the cream to reduce the lactose and so produces lactic acid which I like the taste of. It also probably undoes some of the damage done by the pasteurisation process, though I have no data on this. It is also a very "off" practice for humans to drink fresh milk. Most pastoralists and mixed farmers have historically eaten yogurt or kefir or buttermilk etc. You can only have fresh milk if you have a fridge... Quite a recent invention.

There is a table here of the effects of 300kcal of USA cream or neat casein on insulin. The cream spike is tiny and is probably from residual casein in the cream.

The chocolate is an individual thing, it has no effect on me but some people do have hunger afterwards. The rumour is that there is a substance in chocolate which blocks the breakdown of your natural cannabinoid neurotransmitter. Those of us with dodgy backgrounds might know that cannabis is an appetite stimulant... I, obviously, wouldn't know.

About HSL, I don't think there is any test, certainly for clinical use, that I know of. Many lipases do come with genetic variants and you have to work with what you have... No changing it if it come to genes, though you might maniplulate the expression by diets such as the OD.

Hope that helps.

It's freezing but miserable and grey here, no sun or snow! Luckily the emergency delivery of central heating oil has now arrived. We ran out 48 hours ago!

Peter

Peter said...

Hi Mark,

Can't get the link to work but it sounds interesting.

The GISSI study showed a preventative effect on sudden cardiac death of a combination of EPA with DHA but the JELIS study, using EPA alone, didn't. The fats may be inter-convertible but they're not the same.....

Peter

Peter said...

Hi Chainey,

Good to hear from you. Just over the last three weeks it doesn't feel much like I've been at Hyperlipid much more than you have!!!!!

I've always gone for Americano's when out and usually have my coffee at home from a cafetiere in that style. The variation from bean type to bean type is huge. At the moment supermarket decaf is for run of the mill drinking but Killimanjaro for the hard stuff when I have use for a caffeine fix!

Caffeine is probably a single dose on alternate days, mostly when I've been up early with Squiggs and need some residual brain function in the evening. That behavioural need, to have a cup of something while you are working, is probably as real as any caffeine need in me. Brown water (instant decaff, yeugh) still comes in useful at work on occasions.

Peter

mark said...

"Hi Mark,

Can't get the link to work but it sounds interesting."

Darn.

You can also find it if you go here:

http://web.mac.com/rblaylock/Russell_Blaylock_M.D./Home.html

Click on Published Papers in the top menu, then click the last paper in the list, called Vaccines and Depression After Age 50.

Unforutnately, he doesn't provide a reference for this claim, but it's interesting that Blaylock is of the opinion that EPA is bad, DHA is good.

Mark.

JohnN said...

Re. Blaylock's statement on fish-oil: "EPA component of fish oils (omega-3 oils) is also a powerful immune suppressant. DHA is not. A healthy immune system means that you can fight infections efficiently and rapidly."

It could very well be true that EPA and DHA provides the complementary interactions with respect to the immunity as he describes (with no reference cited). The "healthy" immune system that Blaylock refers to above actually requires both components - I would think a well modulated immunity response is the healthy one. Vitamin D's role in one's health is one example for the latter. Death by sepsis is for the former.

Regarding milk and insulin response: IGF-1 is also present in milk which in nature, by and large, is food for baby-animal (anabolic).

marco said...

Hi Peter and hi all.

Well, now I know, I’m lactose intolerant.

Preparation period for breath test: 15 days without my preferred 250 grams Total Fage Greek Yoghurt, full fat, parmigiano, butter, mozzarella, etc.
Colitis, flatulence (sorry…), abdominal pain pressing the abdominal region disappeared completely during this period, so the test was rather useless, but it’s wonderful when Science confirm your hypothesis.
I drank a cup of water filled with 25 gr. of lactose at 8.30 am; at 11.00 am my bacterials produced in my colon 59 ppm of hydrogen so the response was very clear.

Now, what to do, apart from ABSOLUTELY STAY AWAY FROM WHEAT/GLUTEN (http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/01/wheat-and-lactose.html... thank you Peter...)?

As butter and parmigiano are very useful for my diet at the moment (but the same is for full fat greek yoghurt), is it necessary to give up lactose for some months or more to heal the gut? In short: can the gut repair while still exposed to diary?

Could I still eat the 8 grams of lactose in 250 grams of Fage Total Greek Yoghurt (17 gr. proteins, 25 gr. fat, 8 gr. carbs) or should I stop taking it and wait until a negative response of the test, maybe in 1 or 2 years? With cautious optimism…

Peter said...

Marco,

Very interesting. It's a hassle but knowledge allows planning. I guess the answer is that now you can self test to see what is acceptable and what is not, starting with ghee as the safest for a single substance challenge. Or stick with non dairy animal fat...

BTW the comment below was posted (hope it's okay to bump it up here latorquemada...) on the "Wheat and lactose and Cordain" post recently, it bears thinking about. What I find strange, apart from it happening, is that it affected two people, albeit closely related, at the same time. I can't see any logic to it, so it's filed under "Interesting" while I think about it some more!

Here's the comment to save you searching:

"While I can't pretend to understand the biochemistry of this all, I found the ideas in the post fascinating because my mother and I, Scandinavians who were both fully lactose tolerant our entire lives have recently both become lactose intolerant (my mother more so -- she is about 70 now -- I tolerate it better, but nothing like when I was eating gluten) about two years after eliminating gluten entirely. Obviously just an anecdote, but interesting to me"

Any ideas as to what might be going on; open for comment... It doesn't seem to fit with either my ideas or those of Cordain...

Peter

Bryan - oz4caster said...

Marco,

I've read that many who are lactose intolerant can tolerate raw milk and raw milk products because of the naturally occurring lactase in the raw milk (from bacteria). The lactase and many other important health factors are destroyed by the heat from pasteurization. Raw milk from clean pastured grass-fed cows is ideal for optimal health. However, raw milk is certainly not a necessity for optimal adult health as Weston Price reported in his studies. But according to Price if you don't get good dairy, then you need to include abundant animal seafoods (fish and shellfish) and/or organ meats in your diet to get optimal nutrition.

Peter said...

Bryan and Marco,

Richard has recently started blogging profusely at Free the Animal and I notice from one of his posts that his GI probs finally cleared with lactose elimination. Raw milk didn't do the job. Some of us really are lactose intolerant. Trying to work out who is when most of us eat wheat is no easy matter...

Peter

Bryan - oz4caster said...

Peter,

I don't get a lot of gas unless I eat a lot of carbs. Maybe I'm carb intolerant :)

Mr Secret said...

http://www.ptbo.igs.net/~stanb/InsulinModel.xls

Interesting stuff comparing insuling from different diets :)

pooti said...

Hi Peter,

I'm an avid reader of your blog. Would you mind if I posted one of your series on my blog with proper credit and links? It's about what to do when losing weight is hard?

Thanks,

Pooti
www.weightymatter.blogspot.com
www.todayiatea.blogspot.com

Peter said...

Mr Secret,

That's got Stan bending my head. Interesting graphs...

Pooti,

Yes, by all means. Just bear in mind that it is very much a discussion/kick around post. It's devoid of refs, they all came in the follow on posts. I never did post about Belgian Blue cattle and insulin sensitivity! Was tempted though.

Peter

pooti said...

Hey Peter, well it's a new year...hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge say no more! :) And it's never to late to read about Belgian Blue Cattle and insulin resistance :D

pooti said...

And btw, thanks a bunch! I'm gonna post them as a series starting this week! Cheers!!

Pooti

p.s. I love the piccy this week!

marco said...

"Trying to work out who is when most of us eat wheat is no easy matter..."

Peter, I think I'll give gluten up, COMPLETELY... and my Total Full Fat (sigh!). Good news: I've found Ghee in a supermarket.
My diet without cheese would be a little monotonous so maybe it'll be useful to include some white rice (not whole) and mix it with ghee and thirty months old Parmigiano, traces of lactose there.
Test again for lactose next year.
Keeping my fingers crossed...

Re Latorquemada's comment, I dont't really know, lactose intolerance after stopping gluten, I've always heard and read the opposite.
Any future ideas you have on this argument, please don't forget to let us know.

Just another thing, Peter: does Squiggs completely avoid gluten? Beatrice (3 y.o.) loves pasta, they probably can manage lots of carbs better than us, but I don't know whether I should switch her diet to rice and potatoes or not...

Peter said...

Yes, Squiggs is 100% gluten free but does get very small amounts of other grains at nursery. His bulk carbs are potatoes and especially parsnips. Oh, and bananas too, he loves bananas. Reasonably paleoish even if they are a bit high in sugars...

Peter

elizabeth said...

Dear Peter

Do people buy the Lactose free products that are available - supermarkets do a range of them usually and I was thinking for Marco - have you tried these if you have the severe level of Lactose intolerance?

I am using the lactose free Marscapone, Mozarella and cream that is available here and seems to be OK - I have an issue with the ghee and butter - stomach pain afterwards....

Also, on the JD site for OD, he mentions never to mix proteins and fats. I find that astonishing, as all here regularly add fats of every type to our protein dishes.. extra butter, oil, ghee etc. Cream.. how can that be?

Please direct me to the best posting for LA and LAL and the inpact of PUFAs on them etc. Strugling still with the whole PUFA isssue.

Thank you

Peter said...

Elizabeth,

I personally try to eat food. If some very clever food chemist has done some very clever food chemistry to what used to be a food and is now a niche market added value product, I do without it. If my gut says no lactose, I go lactose free by either not eating lactose containing foods or by getting rid of the lactose by a granny technique like fermentation...

I don't know of JK ever advising not to mix fats with protein... No one ever eats protein without fat. They come together in animals!

I've not posted much on PUFA because I just avoid sixes as much as possible and take small supplementary amounts of threes, that's about all I need. There are a couple of posts here and here that mention them and when I get to finish the AGE RAGE and ALE series there will be more. But for the time being, avoid vegetable oils seems to be the best advice I can give.

Peter

marco said...

Thanks for thinking for me, Elizabeth. I'd like to try lactose free milk just for testing.
I'm reading something about Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO)and there's a little doubt in my mind: could one be sugar intolerant, meaning that your gut can manage only a certain amount of grams each time?
Is there a threshold of tolerance for sugar in general?
I'm wondering if 25 grams (of the test) of another kind of sugar (in a liquid) would have provoked the same reaction on my gut, some absorbed and some downwards to the colon...
Lactose free milk has the same quantity of sugar (Glucose+galactose+lactose in very very small amounts) than "normal" milk but my wife's reaction is the same: intestinal bloating.

elizabeth said...

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the comeback. I didn't really consider Lactose free as artificial. Guess I am pretty damn naive. Am concentrating so intensely on getting fats into my body and getting the weight on that I was doing it any way possible. Trying hard but.. top quality nutrition can be very difficult to get right when every thing you put in your mouth hurts!

Have a good day - Elizabeth

JB said...

Peter/All,

Someone forwarded this to me.

Comments?

http://www.greenpeace.org/india/news/no-need-for-condoms-ge-corn

Poor little mice... so abused.

Cheers! Brad

Stan (Heretic) said...

Hi Peter,

Some food for thoughts:

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2009/01/master-broda.html

Interesting hypothesis linking thyroid deficiency with common degenerative disease and acquired inheritance through mitochondrial degeneration (hello Monsieur Lamarck!).

Stan

_flo said...

I'm not sure if anyone posted it here before... Have a look: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083495

:D

elizabeth said...

Hi Peter,

I found something which may be interesting- I am getting a bit long in the tooth and read British Good Housekeeing these days. You would all be astonished to find in main stream press, an article on UK COCONOIL.co.uk and an explanation about what it is and how it is healthy and full of no trans fats. Well, that's how they are selling it from the "no Nasties" angle, but, it is an advert and a step in the right direction. Look for it in shops or online at Coconoil.co.uk.

Also, I thought everyone might be interested to know that I have been suffering for some time from allergy to Aspergilius O fungi. Thought I was imagining it as I don't really believe too much in allergies to things but, it is for real. How do I know? Because I was taking some very useful stomach digestive supplements loaded with it and started to get very sore red eyes and runny nose. This, I put down to Lactose. But, when yo go for Lactose free products- one of the various methods for making dairy lactose free is adding in masses of Aspergilis.O

Did some research on what exactly makes something Lactose-free, and yes, is truly artificial. Given up on all of it now - just going for the real thing and if my stomach growls , well, lower amounts eaten more slowly spread over longer periods may be the answer.
I am sorry, but can't find the exact link I was reading on it last night.

Cheers, Elizabeth

efficacious said...

That's great news. I always wondered if someone pregnant should eat a high fat diet. Thanks for the info.

_flo said...

When pregnant, you need to boost carbs in the last weeks - for baby's oxygen needs.
(according to Jan Kwasniewski)

Peter said...

Elizabeth, yes, you have to watch anything "free from" very carefully. Trying to stick to food as close to Food as you can get is a good idea...

Hi JB, I love it. I had considered that soy isoflavones might be the answer to global overpopulation. Maybe we can extend that to all GM crops. Monsanto to save the planet. Thank goodness.

Stan, Georgette,oven on Dr Bernstein's forum, has a lot of time for Broda, hypothyroidism and CHD. I did try the "temeprature on waking before movement" test and I'm always hypothermic. This fits well with the link you have on your blog to the most up to date essay by Dr Rosedale. He is looking for low basal temp and a physiological low T4 level as a route to chronic disease avoidance, which he classes as aging avoidance...

BTW love the widget on your blog, lets me have a quick look round who's been updating recently. Not me at the moment!

Hi Flo, yes, picked it up through Stan. I have to say I'd quite like to read the full text. People who visit here wouldn't be surprised but I'd like to see the details of the person with a poor HOMA score.

Hi Efficatious, high fat with LC (but not Atkins induction) and real food. Yes, though I have to say my wife still had serious hyperemesis problems. It's not a panacea, but she had absolutely no suggestion of pre eclampsia or anaemia and Squiggs has been very healthy compared to many babies I know and most of those in our NCT group. We did use the increased carbs late on but Squiggs came three weeks early!

Peter

Thackray said...

Peter, Stan,

Rosedale is low carb but avoids saturated fats and whole fat dairy. Where does he get that?

Philip Thackray

Peter said...

Hi Thackray,

Sorry, thought the reply through but never wrote it down... I think the idea is that after years of sucrose poisoning our fat is very very high in palmitic acid and we need extra monounsaturates to get a better ratio, so we don't develop additional palmitate induced insulin resistance from diet as well as from lipolysis. I suspect if your carbs are low enough it doesn't matter.

He's a very bright guy but we can't all be right on everything, so I'm still here on the OD. Personally I think we probably make as much palmitoleic acid as our body needs when making fat from acetyl CoA, whatever the source of the latter, so I'm happy to run on a high palmitate diet. But then I'm weight stable....

The dairy might be related to insulin effects of casein as well as FA preferences, I've not read his book so shouldn't comment.

BTW we're up to a max of eight eggs in a day from 10 chickens now (mid Winter!) and they are up to small commercial size. Trashed their area of the garden, as expected!

Thackray said...

Peter,

Your chickens are on fire!!! I think you chose a genetically good egg layer. Our chickens were chosen more for their looks (polish banty for example) and personality (Orpingtons) than for their egg production. So during the winter we don’t get many eggs.

Thanks for your answers.

Regards,

Philip Thackray
Renfrew, PA

Bryan - oz4caster said...

Peter,

Do you know if or how much the chicken's diet affects the amount of PUFA in the eggs? I'm guessing that the typical commercial diet high in grains and soy causes more PUFA in the eggs, but I'm not sure what might be a better alternative. Most commercial eggs have around 10% of calories as PUFA or more.

Thackray said...

Bryan,

The fatty acid composition of feed lot animals is responsive to diet within a range. Here are some pig studies:

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/81/8/1967

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/73/7/1982

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/75/9/2335

I’ve seen similar studies done on cattle.

Of course, free ranging the chickens would be ideal (assuming they don’t have access to a grain crop) but here in Western Pennsylvania the harsh winters and predatory creatures makes that very difficult. I have been thinking about a homemade feed consisting of:

Corn germ meal (what’s left after the corn oil is extracted)
Alfalfa (good 6 – 3 balance, high calcium)
Coconut, dried and shredded (my chickens love this)
Some additional natural calcium
Flax product ??? not so sure about this one.
Outside as much as possible.

My problem with the flax supplement is, I’d rather push the saturated fats up and the Omega 6’s down. I don’t see any reason to push the Omega 3s up unless I thought that this would further limit Omega 6’s. There is probably a paper on this one since egg suppliers are now pushing Omega 3 eggs, but I have not looked. Also, these Omega 3’s are ALA and I rather get small amounts of DHA and EPA.

Pigs and chickens have inherently high levels of PUFA compared to the ruminants such as cattle and sheep, and the natural ratios tend strongly to the 6's, so I don’t think we can achieve the kind of Omega 6 – 3 ratios possible with grass fed ruminants.

Philip Thackray
Renfrew, PA