You know how it is when CarbSane quotes a paper which refutes the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity. You really can't be *rsed to chase it but you also know that there will be a fundamentally flawed approach which needs looking at. CarbSane was my route in to Kathleen Axen's work with transfats, which I've probably not finished with yet, but which markedly ramped up my dislike of these industrial lipotoxins. I really enjoyed digging back through the Axen papers, though it took hours, and there's no way I would have hit on them without CarbSane's dire (and incorrect) opinion of LC eating based on the last of the triad. Cracking.
So it is with Grey and Kipnis' paper on the irrelevance of fasting insulin to weight loss. It leads back to a rat paper (aren't you surprised!). The rat model was developed to allow rats to gain weight under hypoinsulinaemic conditions. So GnK had a high carbohydrate diet and a low carbohydrate diet for their rats, both of which promoted weight gain, but the LC diet did it without raised insulin. Here are the diets:
Nice.
But here's the funny part. They did a whole load of experiments (very interesting, seminal work on pancreatic glucokinase induction/suppression) which required equal calorie intake between a group on the high carbohydrate diet and another group on the zero carbohydrate diet. Let me quote:
"Since the low carbohydrate-high fat diet is less palatable to rats than the high carbohydrate diet, pair feeding was accomplished by determining the caloric intake of the low carbohydrate fed rats and then offering a comparable [ie less than they would have eaten] caloric amount of the high carbohydrate diet the following day to another group of animals."
You just have to admire the palate of those hypoinsulinaemic rats. Of course it's just possible they weren't ratty gourmands, it might actually be that they just weren't hungry because their fasting insulin was low and no one was ordering them to eat more than they felt like................
The giggles that come from following CarbSane's leads! Gotta get them from somewhere.
More on the cited Grey and Kipins 1971 paper when I've finished with the modern studies looking at the same question. There are some nice ones.
Peter
Interesting too that they had a lot fewer scruples about putting their human subjects through the mill in those days - and one of them (2 if you count the 18 year old) a child too!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you conclusions are about that paper? ARe you saying they didn't feed the rats the low carb diet? I find it hard understanding some of the ways in scientific papers sentences are phrased. This is the first time I have heard of CarbSane.
ReplyDeleteImagine that dietary studies had been traditionally performed on cats instead of rats. Scientists would have quickly discovered that low fat diets cause obesity and diabetes and that fibre is really, really unhealthy
ReplyDeleteSue,
ReplyDeleteThere was a bit of a to-do in the potato weight loss thread just down the page with 70-odd comments. CS got mentioned by one of her fans and then she showed up with the study in question.
The rat study demonstrates the researchers' deeper knowledge of physiology and shows it is likely they designed their human study to show what they say they wanted: that the obesity-related hyperinsulinism is a reaction to diet instead of intrinsic in obesity itself.
CS sort of paints targets on herself. She talks with a lot of bluster and makes extravagant claims about her education and professional skill (masters degree, research positions, published often in sci/eng journals, etc.) and then does weird things like confusing protein sparing with insulin resistance or claiming she's not pushing an agenda while jumping up and down saying Taubes is a liar.
I had my first look at Carb(In)Sane today. The author is an utter whacko. No wonder she chooses to remain anonymous.
ReplyDeleteThanks for that Chris.
ReplyDeleteNo, I was wrong - it was 4 children (13, 14 years old) plus the 18 year old - Well it was late at night.
ReplyDeletewhat kind of thing is amphcoel? and what vegetable produces oil?
ReplyDeleteDon't discard the possibility that Carbsane is a mole for Big Agro. Her idiotic comments on the Gary Taubes blog show her accusing Taubes of no scientific backing and pushing the typical Gluttony and Sloth argument, even though she admits on her blog to having lost a ton of weight on VLC.
ReplyDeleteA poser trying to get readers of GCBC to doubt LCHF diets? Big Agro has done much worse in the past to get their way. A fake blogger to confuse dieters and spread false information would cost them peanuts. And they would adore the idea since it's technically legal.
Ah, yes--CarbSane.
ReplyDeleteI don't think she or James Krieger are working for Big Agro.
Exactly why Gary Taubes makes her froth at the mouth isn't clear. But some people get really angry about whether or not Pluto is called a planet, and some people think Bacon wrote all of Shakespeare. The blogosphere is replete with wackos.
Sue: "ARe you saying they didn't feed the rats the low carb diet? I find it hard understanding some of the ways in scientific papers sentences are phrased."
ReplyDeleteNo kidding.
What they found was that the high-carb rats ate a lot more than the low-carb rats.
So to make it "isocaloric" they had to watch how much the low-carb rats ate and then restrict the high-carb rats to no more than that amount.
One of the unstated conclusions of the study was "Rats on a low-carb diet spontaneously consume less calories than rats on a high-carb diet."
Yes, Krieger is a wacko up there with the best of them.
ReplyDeleteHere he is telling us how sorry he is for insulin getting such a bad reputation.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
If Big Agro doesn't mind killing millions of people and causing untold amounts of suffering with high fructose corn syrup, don't assume they're somehow above sending out fake bloggers to preach this kind of brazen misinformation.
Someday we will look back on them just like we do the tobacco companies today.
Interesting ideas, and I have no doubts about the benign nature of big Agro. But ultimately there are still enough oddballs out there for me to accept personal quirks as a perfectly reasonable explanation for the hating of Gary Taubes. I keep telling myself, THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY. I keep telling you this too Gunther. I just wish it didn't look so much as if there were!
ReplyDeletePeter
Krieger would be much more plausible as a corporate shill, as he looks and writes like a professional.
ReplyDeleteCarbsane is not, unless you think big agra has some interest in showing that an obsession with tautological observations and Gary Taubes makes you hostile and paranoid.
How can you possibly take seriously someone who insists on anonymity when writing about fat loss?
As if the STASI or KGB are going to get you.
In response to a reader email CarbSane has done on a post on why she low-carbs:
ReplyDeletehttp://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-i-eat-low-carb-response-to-reader.html#comment-form
Thanks David Isaak for the explanantion.
@Commenters: Having been accused of displaying poor form by quoting something of no consequence from a private email in a blog, I'm disappointed to see displays of even poorer form by slagging off person "A" in person "B"'s blog.
ReplyDeleteNigel,
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that in your case it was a private email that was brought into the public discussion on a blog, whereas "CarbSane" is already a public entity and therefore people should feel free to discuss her in any forum they please. It's no different than any other public figure, whether you are talking about her, Taubes, Axen or Gaddafi.
In fact, I would add that by not knowing her actual identity, it frees people to conduct themselves in even "poorer form" based on the perception that "CarbSane" is not a known person, only a known institution.
You can tell it's not a conspiracy because conspiracies tend to fall apart quickly thanks to the economic pressures of self-interest. It's a lot easier to screw a few co-conspirators for huge profit now than to stick together and screw the vast majority of people who aren't your co-conspirators for slightly higher profits until one of your co-conspirators screws you.
ReplyDeleteAt least in the US Big Ag is held together by farm subsidies, primarily on wheat, corn, soy, rice, and cotton. And Big Ag lobbies hard to keep that economic advantage.
Anyway, it just looks like a conspiracy. It's really the result of the unintended consequences of good intentions.
-------------
CS isn't crazy or evil. She's just very certain she's right. Not all that different from a number of us in this thread. Or from Robert Lustig:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
I, of course, deny I have any bias at all as I am clearly infallible. ;)
@ kinbrum
ReplyDeletePot calling the kettle black, unless you are referring to CS mocking Peter in a main blog post, or you mocking me in yours....
If you're "disappointed' with any of us making observations of this type about someone who has "slagged", rather viciously, Gary Taubes, Michael Eades, Petro and just about anybody one could name who thinks insulin might be important, maybe you are in the wrong place.
Peter can moderate his own blog without your help as CS's agent, I think.
Oh, I forgot to mention something, NIgel. You are defending a CARTOON. How can you "slag" someone who may not even exist, who literally has no public identity? CS could be a committee project for all we know.
ReplyDeleteWe humans sure do like to gossip and bicker, don't we.
ReplyDeleteHey justdoinglife, awesome question: "What vegetable produces oil." WRT diet, the answer should be "none."
ReplyDelete@ Kurt Harris - Have you ever seen Nigel and Carbsane in the same place? Has anyone? Anyone?
ReplyDeleteKrieger claims that hundreds of clients have lost substantial weight over a three month period. How many have maintained the weight loss over five years? None would be probably be correct.
ReplyDeletePS. I thought it was unethical to identify clients - eg a Costco VP.
His claim that people can increase fat storage with low insulin levels is utterly hilarious/ludicrous - try telling that to a Type I diabetic.
The person who writes anonymously as carbsane is clearly achieving her primary objective, which is getting lots of attention. She makes gross errors about LC, Taubes, and probably many other things--BUT she gets lots of attention. Sad, really.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI overlooked the obvious: Carbsane acts too much like someone who got either fired or dumped, perhaps the low carb part is not the real issue at all.
ReplyDeleteIs that Amphocel as in amphotericin b as in antifungal? WTF?
ReplyDeleteKurt, you better STFU about other bloggers' behavior. Your own track record is far from spotless.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, do you have anything on topic to say on Peter's blog? Right now, all I see from you is whine whine whine. Far from spotless I tell you.
Peter, don't you have some kind of crap filter to, eum, filter out crap from the comments? Oh I get it, you allow people to speak their minds so everybody can figure out for themselves who's a fool and who isn't. Ahhh, that's smart.
Back on topic. I agree with David Isaac, we can conclude that the rats on LC spontaneously ate less. But we already knew that with all the other human studies that show exactly that, didn't we.
I am also reminded how food tastes so much better when you're hungry, and becomes rather disgusting when you're not. So, do we eat more because the food is more palatable? Or is the food more palatable because we're more hungry? I realize that these two statements aren't exactly mutually exclusive, but depending on your choice, you'd have to ask the next question, why are we more hungry? To which we could reasonably answer, maybe because we're growing fatter.
Martin, VLC may make you eat less without hunger, but it may not. It depends on the study model, and in any case it has nothing to do with obesity, a la GCBC. Are we really still arguing whether low insulin causes fat loss? This has been known since the 60s.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm still all for "outing" fake bloggers, or those who willingly spread false info. Whether for money or not, they are knowingly hurting people.
Martin, there's hunger and then there's hunger. I prefer the hunger I feel on LC because it's real and food tastes really good until you're satiated, and then you lose interest. On LF you can have a belly so full of stuff it pushes against your ribs and still feel a weird urge to eat, eat, eat. It's not so much hunger as it is an obsession. At least for me. Maybe for the rats too.
ReplyDeleteKurt, there's nothing secret about Krieger's background (better would be to say that his disclosed bio explains a lot)
ReplyDeletehttp://weightology.net/?page_id=81
it's obvious from that, that he has to peddle conventional wisdom on the subject, or else his whole career would have been on the wrong side.
As for carbsane, I could only say 1 thing tl;dr (too long; didn't read).
I tried once or twice to read her stuff, but could not, the ratio of verbosity to signal is too high, so I don't bother.
Funny that people are accused of being "big agra" shills if they disagree with the low carb paradigm..
ReplyDeleteWhats even funnier though is the anonymous blog posters who think they know everything.
It's fine to disagree. Maybe do it with actual facts though.
ReplyDeleteHey get wild: maybe even read Taubes' book or actually try VLC before you throw all manner of insults at him?
"I agree with David Isaac, we can conclude that the rats on LC spontaneously ate less. But we already knew that with all the other human studies that show exactly that, didn't we."
ReplyDeleteYeah, but what's really interesting there is that they published that (unstated) result in a serious journal back in 1971.
Guess that element didn't have much impact.
BTW, over on a site devoted mostly to hormesis, there is a post where the blogger makes a valiant attmept to reconcile what Taubes, Eades, et al are saying with what CarbSane and Krieger are saying.
ReplyDeletehttp://gettingstronger.org/2011/02/does-insulin-make-you-fat/
@all, I've never moderated comments, there has been one deletion for fully offensive text by someone who turned out to have a serious mental illness. Viagra ads excepted of course.
ReplyDeletePoisonguy, if the diet was really was 29% amphotericin the rats would be dead rather than fussy. I'm assuming they used 29% of non digestible alpha cellulose to bind what is otherwise a liquid diet. If they fed this much amphotericin on top of intraperitoneal actinomycin D the paper would be simple toxicology! I'm guessing it was an unfortnately named filler bought 40 years ago, uncheckable now.
Peter
@"Martin Levac"
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be pretty hostile, too, whoever you are.
I'll take orders to shut up from you or anyone else I've never heard of right about when hell freezes over.
Don't read my blog if it bothers you so much. Just use your "parental controls" option.
@Gallier
I agree with Peter that CS's site is a useful place to find papers, but the analysis of most of them is misleading at best.
@Levac
ReplyDeletePeter said in the OP:
"You know how it is when CarbSane quotes a paper which refutes the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity. You really can't be *rsed to chase it but you also know that there will be a fundamentally flawed approach "
"The giggles that come from following CarbSane's leads! Gotta get them from somewhere."
So it seems to me any of us commenting on the source of these "giggles" is actually quite on topic.
I'm not defending anyone. Project much? I'm just disappointed by the stench of hypocrisy wafting through these comments.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea who CarbSane is. She's pointed out that Gary Taubes is making money from the sale of books containing information that he knew to be wrong before publication. If you think that she's got the science wrong, tell her.
Do you know who I am? Are you real people? ;-D
To be fair Nigel, they (i.e. Kurt and Peter - and Stephan) have tried to tell her, but it's like talking to a brick wall.
ReplyDeleteOh and in the interests of transparency, Jay is actually Jacqueline but at the moment I can't figure out how to get my google account to switch back to the other ID.
ReplyDelete@ Nigel
ReplyDelete'I'm just disappointed by the stench of hypocrisy wafting through these comments."
me too ; )
You hear that Kurt? Peter will not interfere with your self-agrandizing crap slinging festival.
ReplyDeleteYou make a compelling argument to keep at it too. You are an internet MD after all. Your opinion is important by definition. You got plenty of crap to sling around by the looks of it.
Oh look what I'm doing. I'm complaining about another blogger, just like you're doing, but I'm doing it right in his face so he can see who's doing it to him. Hypocrisy? Not from me.
My apology Peter, this is the last time I crap on your blog, I won't do it again I promise. But I just couldn't let that idiot just crap on your blog with impunity. Fire with fire and stuff.
Hi Jacqueline!
ReplyDeletePeter
I notice that Carb Sane seems obsessed with Gary Taubes to the extent of deliberately misrepresenting him.
ReplyDeleteTaubes gave a detailed account of how the Pima became fat when they were forced onto a low fat corn-based diet. Yet CS argues the exact opposite - that the Pima became fat because they adopted a high fat Western diet.
Dead and fungus free! Still, it'd be nice to know what that stuff is made of. Thanks for the feedback, Peter.
ReplyDeleteEach time I see Nigel defend CS on a blog, "Every breath you take" starts humming in my head. Oh, the torture!
Various people said...
ReplyDelete*Blah blah blah*
[Yoda]Mmm. In them the cognitive bias is strong mmm.[/y]
P.S. Hi Jacqueline! You seem nice.
P.P.S. I meant to use "permeating" rather than "wafting through" in my previous comment, but dysphasia got the better of me. I may have a really poor memory, but at least I don't have a really poor memory!
Could be CS is just someone who didn't lose all the weight she wanted to lose on VLC (she had a long way to go, if you believe her bio). Or maybe she's finding it too hard to adhere to the diet. Hence, she's disillusioned with low carb in general. We saw this with another poster a year ago who ended up getting banned here.
ReplyDeleteSo "her" obsession with Taubes could be just sour grapes as opposed to an organised racket. Still doesn't make her right, or serve as an excuse to try to derail other dieters' efforts.
Sorry to take us off course with this interest in CS. But calling out misinformation (and being aware of at least the possibility that this is an organised effort to confuse us) is just as important as discovering new scientific facts.
Funny how nobody has addressed:-
ReplyDelete"I have no idea who CarbSane is. She's pointed out that Gary Taubes is making money from the sale of books containing information that he knew to be wrong before publication." Carry on swinging!
Peter, can you please explain how the results of Grey and Kipnis in humans lead back to a rat paper thus rendering the results in humans moot?
ReplyDeleteSo just because G&K have also researched rats, their results in humans are not relevant and *I'm* the one who has some "fundamentally flawed approach which needs looking at"??
I didn't discuss that rat paper
I would ask all the snarkey commenters here to go look at my actual blog post or follow this link to the full text of the paper I actually cited and discussed. Poor form there making it seem as if I was analyzing some other paper.
In neither the isocaloric nor hypocaloric states did the obese humans demonstrate a correlation between change in body weight and fasting insulin.
In your potato diet post, you made the following statements:
The ultimate determinant of weight loss is fasting insulin. This determines how much lipolysis occurs during the period before the next meal. No one expects to lose weight during the 4 hours immediately after any meal. The following 8 hours, especially overnight, is when weight loss occurs.
and
So you have to ask whether an almost all potato diet genuinely leads low fasting insulin and subsequent weight loss. For my perspective the answer is yes.
The results of Grey & Kipnis - the human paper I referenced on my blog, not the rat paper you're looking at now - clearly demonstrate the error of your statements.
I'm not going to get into a dick measuring or pissing contest with my detractors here. For one, I lack the necessary equipment.
ReplyDeleteBut I do find it amusing that I'm being accused of paranoia by folks who are speculating that I'm a Big Ag mole or that my bunny eared avatar is actually backed by some sort of group effort. Talk about giggling!
And no. Nigel and I are not the same person. Even ol' Gary knows that!
Now, blogblog, care to revisit my blog and respond to my followup? It helps to have your facts straight when accusing someone of not having their's.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCS, it's very simple if you want to be taken seriously as a blogger giving dietary recommendations that have lasting effects on people's lives and health, while claiming to have all the science to back it up:
ReplyDeleteShow your own progress. In pics, bloodwork, stats, whatever you like.
This of course isn't necessary when your lazy interpretation of the science isn't continually proven to be BS.
I must be missing something here. Peter proved something I said in that post to be BS?
ReplyDeleteIn the end I could be Kimmer herself and the issue of Taubes' journalistic malfeasance do not go away.
By his own admission, Taubes didn't even read one of his references (Frayn), he blatantly misrepresented what another seminal reference stated (Newsholme & Start), and pulled facts from his nether regions (as much as 30% of carbs in a given meal are converted to fat).
I think you guys are all just upset that someone bothered to read GCBC critically and delve into the references and science past taking Taubes' journalistic word on faith. Kinda makes you angry to be taken for a ride in a way I guess.
I suppose y'all will be blaming me for Gary flubbing up on Oz too.
How do YOU explain the G&K paper *I* cited. Not the rat paper I've not yet even had a chance to read, but the paper that Todd Becker brought to my attention in the course of our "Insulin Wars" discussion on hyperinsulinemia.
Gotta run, my fellow co-conspirators just IM'd me >:)
Don't feed the trolls, even if they happen to have their own blog.
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing... pictures, or it didn't happen.
@ Martin Levac
ReplyDeleteRemind me again why I should care what you think or obey your directives. Because I forgot already. You are a hostile, tiny little person aren't you? And none too bright, apparently.
Here are the facts:
Like Peter, I've made comments about CS, not you or Nigel. To Peter. On Peter's blog. Not your blog. Not Nigel's blog. Did not mention you or Nigel. Wasn't thinking of you or Nigel, I promise.
The comments I and several others (there are others, or maybe you did not notice...) have made here are not any worse than the ones she makes about friends of mine, including Dr. Eades and Peter, and yes, Gary Taubes, on her blog in nearly every post she writes.
I have no idea who you are. I never addressed you or corresponded with and you have attacked me here for whatever reason. Now you are sputtering in fury and calling me names because I responded to your out-of-left-field demand that I "shut the fuck up". Maybe things are different in the land of the moose, but in the USA that kind of language is perceived to be highly aggressive, or unhinged. Take your pick.
So you can go back to torturing animals or eating wheat, or whatever it is you usually do.
CS dishes it out, and whether anonymous or not, seems to be able to take it as well, unlike some of her presumed sycophants.
Respect to CS.
I've actually enjoyed my exchanges with her there, and you may go read them at her blog if you like.
Books don't get published free of errors. I spent my life in publishing, and it is idiotic to say that because Taubes had a few errors, in what is by any measure a hugely complex book, that it somehow invalidates all the excellent material of the book. Taubes has readily admitted his errors, so to say he is not owning them is simply wrong.
ReplyDeleteNigel and Carbsane come across as petty, factually deluded people who simply don't have enough truly meaningful work to do with their lives.
@Chris: Exactly what in the study design caused the subjects' basal insulin to do what it did?
ReplyDeleteBasal insulin had no correlation to weight maintenance or loss. Period.
Tonya, consider for a moment that I am everything I'm accused of being.
ReplyDeleteNow ...
What, exactly, "didn't happen"?
Taubes didn't just make errors, he flat out misrepresented his own references. That happened. It wasn't an editorial error Nancan. It wasn't an innocent mistake either.
This is why Taubes got upset back when an obscure anonymous blogger showed the world - with just enough of an audience to reach someone who got concerned - his deceit.
Go read the 2003 Reshef paper. Go read the excerpts from Newsholme. My background is ultimately irrelevant, wouldn't you say?
"Taken for a ride"?? We're all here because we reached our weight lost goals in great health using the knowledge gained from Taubes. Why should we be upset?
ReplyDeleteYou're the one desperately scrounging for reasons to take down Taubes. Upset perhaps that the diet didn't work for you, so you have to make sure no one else succeeds?
It's very juvenile, and very dangerous to others.
CS,
ReplyDeleteI don't really understand what you're asking. I also think you might not have understood my comment, which is reasonable as it's not as clear as it could be.
That G&K set out to show that diet rather than obesity elevates insulin levels means they needed to do two things: show it was possible to lower insulin without reducing weight, and that it is possible to lower weight without reducing insulin.
That they previously built animal models in other papers to decouple insulin and changes in weight, cited positively studies in this paper that contradict your position, and failed to come to the same conclusions regarding their data that you did suggest that the only conclusion we can actually draw from this study is the one they did: that obesity doesn't intrinsically elevate insulin.
Basal insulin likely had no correlation in this study by design.
Given this along with the nominal sample size, the non-existent information on subject selection, and the general lack of variation among the study's subjects, this study is hardly a definitive a proof of your position.
Dangerous is people too blinded by hero worship to recognize that said hero lied to them. Pass the stevia sweetened Kool Aid please.
ReplyDeleteRather than trashing me here, perhaps Kurt could explain to his own readers his apparent turn around on insulin.
Oopa ... there's that ding again. Hope it's my Con Agra funds tranfer alert. That reminds me, General Mills is late with their payment.
nancan said...
ReplyDelete"Nigel and Carbsane come across as petty, factually deluded people who simply don't have enough truly meaningful work to do with their lives."
nancan, you come across as a total retard who wouldn't know a fact if you fell over one in the street. I can do insults too, you know!
People like CarbSane & I pay attention to details. If it wasn't for people like us, planes would fall out of the sky on a regular basis and gizmos wouldn't work.
Publishing incorrect information knowing that it's incorrect is just wrong.
I lost 20 lbs and all my pre-diabetic conditions (high trigs, low HDL, etc.), stomach ailments and even a symptoms of preliminary MS went away. He lied to me??
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, we're still waiting to hear the brilliant results you've seen on your own body, based on your impeccable research. I'll even accept some reader testimonies, which I couldn't seem to find on your blog.
gunther,
ReplyDeleteIt is, of course, quite possible that CS is right, though it's unlikely she is as right as she thinks she is.
Taubes is/was undoubtedly wrong about a variety of things. For example, Taubes is already equivocating about the "metabolic advantage" of low CHO diets. Eades thinks he's wrong, but the bulk of the literature appears to support the lack of metabolic advantage.
The glyceroneogenesis paper by Hanson and Reshef is certainly interesting, but it doesn't explain the rapid epidemiological changes in obesity/diabetes rates and sort of waves its hands at insulin's effects on FFA retention--as demonstrated by a variety of hormone perfusion studies--in favor of speculation about PEPCK-C-related lipidystrophy (which also, they assert, causes obesity) as a cause rather than an effect of insulin resistance.
Amusingly, the G&K study we're discussing in this post contradicts some of H&R's assumptions about obesity and insulin, for if obesity caused insulin resistance then weight loss would cause a concomitant drop in basal insulin levels related to improved insulin sensitivity, but it doesn't, as G&K have shown.
I seriously doubt that a well renowned author on controversial subjects (Taubes) would allow to publish known errors in a book that many (be they paid by Big Agro or not) would love to pick to pieces. That would be equal to putting a sticker on his chest saying "shoot me here". I quite think he suspected that each little detail would be checked, rechecked and then checked by a lot of people who would just love to get him for it.
ReplyDeleteA big book like that is bound to have some factual errors. It just happens. Something I'm much more surprised about is the frequent misinterpretations and (low fat)bias errors that scientists make repetedly even when their own science is staring them in the face.
It seems to have eaten my earlier response to CS. I'll try to reconstruct it.
ReplyDeleteCS,
I think you might have misunderstood my first post. It's understandable as my post wasn't as clear as it could have been.
G&K's stated goal was to show that elevated basal insulin levels were diet related rather than obesity related. To do this they would need to show two things: that it is possible to lose weight without lowering insulin levels and that it is possible to lower insulin levels without losing weight. From their data, it is clear they were successful in this.
Given that they previously published on animal models of decoupling insulin levels and body weight, they cite in their paper research that contradicts your conclusion, and the fact that they failed to draw the same conclusions from their data that you did suggest that the lack of correlation of weight loss and insulin levels was likely entirely by design.
How they achieved it is beyond my understanding of the reported experimental methods, however.
But, given the nominal sample size, the complete absence of subject selection criteria, and the general lack of variation among the subjects, even if the data does support your position, that support can hardly be called definitive.
Chris, what is my conclusion?
ReplyDeleteLet me help out. I see that diet can influence basal insulin levels independent of weight changes.
This is counter to what Peter states as fact in his potato post.
QED.
My original comment to Peter seems to have disappeared. Oh well.
ReplyDeleteRepost..
ReplyDeletePeter, can you please explain how the results of Grey and Kipnis in humans lead back to a rat paper thus rendering the results in humans moot?
So just because G&K have also researched rats, their results in humans are not relevant and *I'm* the one who has some "fundamentally flawed approach which needs looking at"??
I didn't discuss that rat paper
I would ask all the snarkey commenters here to go look at my actual blog post or follow this link to the full text of the paper I actually cited and discussed. Poor form there making it seem as if I was analyzing some other paper.
In neither the isocaloric nor hypocaloric states did the obese humans demonstrate a correlation between change in body weight and fasting insulin.
In your potato diet post, you made the following statements:
The ultimate determinant of weight loss is fasting insulin. This determines how much lipolysis occurs during the period before the next meal. No one expects to lose weight during the 4 hours immediately after any meal. The following 8 hours, especially overnight, is when weight loss occurs.
and
So you have to ask whether an almost all potato diet genuinely leads low fasting insulin and subsequent weight loss. For my perspective the answer is yes.
The results of Grey & Kipnis - the human paper I referenced on m blog, not the rat paper you're looking at now - clearly demonstrate the error of your statements.
Yes, I saw that:
ReplyDelete"Basal insulin had no correlation to weight maintenance or loss. Period."
I'm saying that in this study it was likely by design. I've given my reasons. Restating your position hardly constitutes a refutation.
@CarbSane these are the two posts which disappeared, the software claims they were deleted by the author, certainly not by me:
ReplyDeletePeter, can you please explain how the results of Grey and Kipnis in humans lead back to a rat paper thus rendering the results in humans moot?
So just because G&K have also researched rats, their results in humans are not relevant and *I'm* the one who has some "fundamentally flawed approach which needs looking at"??
I didn't discuss that rat paper
I would ask all the snarkey commenters here to go look at my actual blog post or follow this link to the full text of the paper I actually cited and discussed. Poor form there making it seem as if I was analyzing some other paper.
In neither the isocaloric nor hypocaloric states did the obese humans demonstrate a correlation between change in body weight and fasting insulin.
In your potato diet post, you made the following statements:
The ultimate determinant of weight loss is fasting insulin. This determines how much lipolysis occurs during the period before the next meal. No one expects to lose weight during the 4 hours immediately after any meal. The following 8 hours, especially overnight, is when weight loss occurs.
So you have to ask whether an almost all potato diet genuinely leads low fasting insulin and subsequent weight loss. For my perspective the answer is yes.
The results of Grey & Kipnis - the human paper I referenced on my blog, not the rat paper you're looking at now - clearly demonstrate the error of your statements.
and the other:
I'm not going to get into a dick measuring or pissing contest with my detractors here. For one, I lack the necessary equipment.
But I do find it amusing that I'm being accused of paranoia by folks who are speculating that I'm a Big Ag mole or that my bunny eared avatar is actually backed by some sort of group effort. Talk about giggling!
And no. Nigel and I are not the same person. Even ol' Gary knows that!
Now, blogblog, care to revisit my blog and respond to my followup? It helps to have your facts straight when accusing someone of not having their's.
@all, enjoy,
Peter
Thanks for re-posting. The 1:23 I did delete - it was a duplicate. I didn't delete the first one. Interested in your response.
ReplyDeleteOh, I see what you're saying. It's the absolute nature of Peter's recent statement about fasting insulin being the end all is what you're on about. Well, sure. But it would have been far less confusing for us poor simpletons if you had simply noted that amputation results in weight loss and requires no reduction in fasting insulin.
ReplyDeleteHere I was thinking your position here was as it is on your blog: that insulin has nothing to do with weight loss. Or am I mis-remembering that too?
@CarbSane,
ReplyDeleteYou have made a fundamental mistake about this post.
What on earth makes you think it has anything to do with you? You certainly didn't cite the rat paper. I cited the paper because I blog about whatever I feel like.
The concept of gourmand rats is hysterical to me. I suppose the significance of the observation that rats find fat "unpalatable" is only amusing when you view it from the insulinocentric point of view. So I guess it's wasted on you.
The whole film was amusing but not in the league of the rat paper.
Peter
Tessan said...
ReplyDeleteI seriously doubt that a well renowned author on controversial subjects (Taubes) would allow to publish known errors in a book that many (be they paid by Big Agro or not) would love to pick to pieces.
I suspect that Taubes thought that nobody would notice and anyone who did notice and mentioned it would be denigrated as a Big Agro shill! ;-p I get a pension from Thales, a multi-national communications company.
@gunther: I'm happy that you've achieved good results by following Taubes' advice. But what about the people who eat all the protein & fat they want and don't lose weight, or even gain weight because they've been misled to believe that calories don't count at all? Everybody is different. You seem to be forgetting that. Misleading people in this way is damaging to LC diets.
An unknown blogger attacks the work of a respected author.
When the unknown blogger is Denise Minger and the respected author is T Colin Campbell, everyone in the paleosphere pats Denise on the back.
When the unknown blogger is CarbSane and the respected author is Gary Taubes, everyone in the paleosphere stabs CarbSane in the back.
What a giggle!
@Peter: I attracted CarbSane's attention to this post as commenters were making personal attacks on her, so you can blame me for her posting here.
OK, CS
ReplyDelete"Rather than trashing me here, perhaps Kurt could explain to his own readers his apparent turn around on insulin. "
From the queen of trashing herself no less!
I have not "turned around" on insulin. In fact, I have hardly even blogged about it.
But since you are claiming I have something to "turn around" from, here is a section of this post from one year ago:
From:
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/15/insulin-is-a-doorman-at-the-fat-cell-nightclub-not-a-lock-on.html
".... insulin's action to promote fat storage is always in the context of other factors.
If you have just been released from a POW camp on starvation rations, and you start eating 5000 calories a day of nothing but fat and protein, I can guarantee that you will start to store fat.
Alternatively, if you have lowered your caloric intake due to reduced hunger on a low carb diet, and have plenty of fat stores, and your body is seeing less glucose than it is used to, you will liberate and burn body fat under influence of the Randle cycle and lower insulin levels.
Is insulin involved? Yes. Do higher insulin levels, all other things being equal, shift the equilibrium towards storage and away from fat release? Definitely. Does any of this mean you cannot store fat without eating carbohydrate or that you cannot burn fat with insulin present? Of course not. ...
Insulin levels are an important factor in fat storage but they are not the only factor and IT IS NOT AN ON/OFF SWITCH. Insulin is ONE hormone that affects the storage/release equilibrium."
I think that is still a good summary of my views on insulin. Important, but not the only player. But not practically irrelevant as you claim.
That is not your "Taubes theory" of insulin is it?
Nor does it contradict Peter's potatoes post, does it?
You know I don't ascribe to the idea that the obesity epidemic is attributable to carbs in general. I have always believed insulin is quite important in energy regulation and fat equilibrium and I still do.
And I've talked about wheat, linoleic acid and excess fructose since day one as the most culpable neolithic agents.
But you already know that from the posts I've made on your blog, don't you?
My issue with you and GT - which I never mentioned on your blog - has squat to do with insulin - it is in the realm of theory of mind - you claim to have absolute knowledge that GT knowingly published mistakes in BCBC for financial gain. This claim is not just unknowable by you, it is despicable and not all that plausible, really.
Who spends 7 years writing and researching a difficult-to-market book like GCBC for MONEY - living in NYC on a measly $600 K advance for 7 years? That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard, really.
I am really sorry you have to count and measure or "work out" or do triathlons or whatever. Life for you must suck, I am sure. But, many of the rest of us do quite well with GT's (and Michael Eades') insights, even if he erred on details and mechanisms.
@all,
ReplyDeleteBlogger software keeps putting comments in to spam. I'll keep a closer eye on the spam folder when I'm about.
Peter
@Nigel
ReplyDeleteOK, I am just asking.
You have confessed that you contacted GT about G3P and went criticizing him around the web based on a video of a lecture - and that you only recently actually read the book he wrote - the one you now claim you are in "99% agreement with" - whether G3P is rate limiting was so important that the whole corpus of GCBC - the history, the demolition of the lipid and diet heart hypotheses - were as nothing compared to to the issue of G3P. And GT is a "liar".
(To use your metaphor, if you really were responsible for airplanes, I see them falling out of the sky, but with impeccably clean windshields...)
So now you are saying that CS is to GT as Denise Minger is to Colin Campbell.
Really? Did you actually READ both books?
I hope not, because to say that GCBC and China Study are remotely equivalent - morally, intellectually, scientifically, journalistically, etc.,
makes you sound, how would a brit say it?
Daft?
I'll admit I missed the joke.
ReplyDeleteIt's an interesting bit of question-begging to refer to reduced consumption as either "more satisfying" or "less palatable" without asking the subjects why they stopped eating.
Vis. "the food was disgusting, I couldn't finish it" vs. "I wish I could have eaten more, but the food was too filling."
------
Nigel,
Taubes' advice on diet--at least in Why We Get Fat--includes something along the lines of "eat until you're satisfied" rather than "eat as much as you possibly can" and has noted that it's inadvisable to do things like go off steroid drugs that keep you alive, even if they make you fat. He also hasn't promised anyone they'll get Brad Pitt's body in 90 days or anything of the sort. Further, he's changed his tune on at least one of his claims regarding LC diets--the metabolic advantage. If anything, he seems like he's aware he's likely to be wrong often and he's doing the good scientist thing and is making slow, methodical changes to his position.
Also, and I may be wrong, Ms. Minger is not claiming Campbell is a fraud or a liar or a con artist who's just trying to sell books and keep himself famous, just that he's wrong and his analysis of his data is flawed and biased.
Arguing against tone is rather weak sort of refutation and tone shouldn't be important in the end, but it is important if someone expects people to listen and it certainly seems to explain why CS' hostility is alienating the people who believe the ideas she opposes.
In other words, Taubes and Minger seem like nice people trying to do/report on good science, CS seems like someone trying to use her certainty and knowledge of Arthur Schopenhauer's methods to bludgeon others with her version of the Truth. Who's right and who's wrong has very little to do with who people listen to, unfortunately.
@Chris
ReplyDeleteWell, I confess one of the reasons I initially engaged CS on her blog, with no mention of GT, was because I agreed with some of her criticisms of GT - including the idea that carbs per se are a source of the obesity epidemic and MetSyn, etc. I had never read her until after I wrote posts like "No such thing as a macronutrient" - so I thought there might be some value there.
But then I discovered that as with Matt Stone, there is some clever observation mixed in with a bunch of reflexive, poorly thought out contrarianism there.
Like: "The real threat is not hyperglycemia, it is elevated NEFA, and elevated NEFA on VLC may cause diabetes - or give you a heart attack". Which is highly speculative if not completely silly.
Why it is worth arguing with a cartoon now is precisely because the cartoon rabbit-person is promoting a false dichotomy:
The idea that you must believe either HER conception of Taubes ( carbs drive insulin drives fat and nothing else matter) or you must become a nutritional nihilist, retreating to only believing and repeating the useless tautology of calories in = calories out ad nauseum. Like in her response to the potatoes post, where Peter is mocked for even trying to explain something with any complexity.
And perhaps it is useful to challenge the idea that any of us who think it is wrong to call Taubes a liar or fraud or to spell his name Taube$ - are merely, to use Nigel's lovely phrase - "nut swingers" for Gary Taubes.
So Nigel thinks all critics of CS are "nutswingers". He wants you to know that. So he posted that on CS's blog. Because NIgel feels so strongly about saying things to you directly ; )
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nut%20Swinger
Kurt G. Harris MD said...
ReplyDelete@Nigel
OK, I am just asking. I'm glad that we're having a civil conversation in public. You've raised a lot of points and it's late, so I'll try to answer them, but I have to be brief as I really need my beauty sleep. ;-)
You have confessed that you contacted GT about G3P and went criticizing him around the web based on a video of a lecture - and that you only recently actually read the book he wrote - the one you now claim you are in "99% agreement with" - whether G3P is rate limiting was so important that the whole corpus of GCBC - the history, the demolition of the lipid and diet heart hypotheses - were as nothing compared to to the issue of G3P. And GT is a "liar". "Confessed?" "went criticizing him around the web"? "Liar"? Hmmm. I wrote a blog post "I have a theory" which I referred to in other posts. Have you read it? Nobody gets things 100% right. I'm not too sure why people are getting so upset over the 1% I think Taubes got wrong.
(To use your metaphor, if you really were responsible for airplanes, I see them falling out of the sky, but with impeccably clean windshields...) I'm glad to see that you haven't lost your sense of humour.
So now you are saying that CS is to GT as Denise Minger is to Colin Campbell. Um... People in the paleosphere don't like Campbell, so attacking him is encouraged. Taubes however is considered a God, so anyone attacking him must be burned at the stake. See Low Carb Talibans.
Really? Did you actually READ both books? Of course not! GCBC is far too long! I kept nodding-off. Toban Weibes' cliff notes are much more easily digestible.
I hope not, because to say that GCBC and China Study are remotely equivalent - morally, intellectually, scientifically, journalistically, etc., makes you sound, how would a brit say it?
Daft? See above. Good night!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKurt,
ReplyDeleteAs something of a coward and a hypocrite myself, I try not to fault others too much or too quickly if they seem like they're leaning into those behaviors. But I'm not nearly Zen enough, or smart enough for that matter, to find the all the insightful points among a lot of weirdness. Just some of my many failings, I'm sure.
Regarding CS' response to Peter's potato post, I'm a little disappointed it ended up being her calling him to task for generalizing in a way that's not to her taste. Maybe I'm wrong and that's not what she intended. She hasn't responded yet.
Regarding FFAs directly causing diabetes, one thing that's confused me about this position is if FFAs caused insulin resistance (over and above the transient, glycogen/protein sparing kind I mean), why wouldn't fat loss exacerbate it rather than improve it? I mean, losing one lb/week means you're consuming some 500 calories/day largely made from saturated animal fat straight from your own ass.
At the risk of being seen as a nut swinger (and I had no idea that's what it meant. I thought it was someone who swung for the nuts, i.e. took cheap shots) I want to say I rather enjoyed your "no such thing as a macronutrient" articles.
@ Chris
ReplyDeleteThanks. I had to avail myself of the urban dictionary for "nutswinger", too. Never been called that before.
A little bitty yellow miata does not look very "urban" does it? Who knew Nigel was so "G"?
FFA metabolism is definitely disturbed in diabetes, and may mediate some negative effects of same, although most of the evidence I've seen suggests it is elevated NEFA in the context of altered cytosolic conditions (lack of beta oxidation to match the NEFA availability) that is more responsible.
The idea that the NEFA elevations seen in fasting, sleeping or simply failing to eat carbs with a meal has anything at all to do with pathology of diabetes is not supported by any evidence I've seen.
Just like a BG of 120 after a baked potato does not have the same meaning - or danger - as having a BG of 120 while fasting.
@ Chris
ReplyDeleteYes, the levels CS is concerned with - according to what she has written, are in the 700 nmol range.
With really rapid weight loss, as in starvation, NEFA typically get into the 1500 nmol range.
Which I guess explains why all those liberated from Auschwitz were found to have such out-of control diabetes.
Kurt- I definitely agree with you in that CS posts (at least earlier ones) raised many good points in addition to presenting some interesting papers, but somehow eventually devolved into anti-Taubesian conspiracy rantfests in which extrapolations about complex metabolism are being formulated using piecemeal observations from the likes of Intralipid infusion and rat chow studies etc.
ReplyDeleteI'm also especially hesitant of using snapshot-in-time FFA concentrations as a specific marker of any pathologic process or ongoing metabolic derangement. It's diabetes 101 as pointed out by Joslin that FFA flux is not anywhere close to linear over the physiologic range, and that in states of high flux (exercise and hypocaloric diets) FFA levels are much, much greater than what would be predicted linearly- indeed, "Thus, although FFA concentrations are a reasonable indicator of FFA release, it is not possible to use concentration values to make quantitative estimates of release rates, and in some circumstances FFA concentrations can be misleading with respect to changes in lipolysis."
With that in mind, everyone should probably be wary of the CS extrapolation that leads to the conclusion that elevated NEFA in in a hypocaloric LC'er is the same as the dangerous elevated NEFA in a frank diabetic.
@kds
ReplyDelete"it is not possible to use concentration values to make quantitative estimates of release rates, and in some circumstances FFA concentrations can be misleading with respect to changes in lipolysis"
I agree with you and Joslin's text on this. NEFA levels elevated in the context of elevated consumption - exercise, fasting, no carbs, etc., is not only not dangerous, it is quite necessary.
The consumption rate - and hence the presence or absence of intracellular toxins cannot be inferred from the concentration.
And continually talking about "insulin resistance" without reference to the specific organ or whether it is physiologic regulation or due to pathology is also a big error. There is appropriate IR and inappropriate IR, just as NEFA or BG can elevate in both normal or abnormal states.
If the peripheral IR reversal one got from simply increasing starch in the diet "cured" the pathologic IR of fatty liver in someone with metabolic syndrome, the cure for diabetes would be more bread and potatoes -or DM would never happen in the first place.
Kurt - so physiological insulin resistance would occur so that those cells that run on glucose preferentially get the available glucose they need and the other cells can use FFA and ketones?
ReplyDeleteIt's morning, so here we go!
ReplyDeleteChris said...
Nigel,
Taubes' advice on diet--at least in Why We Get Fat--includes something along the lines of "eat until you're satisfied" rather than "eat as much as you possibly can" and has noted that it's inadvisable to do things like go off steroid drugs that keep you alive, even if they make you fat. He also hasn't promised anyone they'll get Brad Pitt's body in 90 days or anything of the sort. Further, he's changed his tune on at least one of his claims regarding LC diets--the metabolic advantage. If anything, he seems like he's aware he's likely to be wrong often and he's doing the good scientist thing and is making slow, methodical changes to his position.
Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKIhYQZuLZ8. Taubes clearly states 8 minutes and 12 seconds in:- (emphasis mine) "You can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want, as long as you're eating fat and protein". Those words are going to haunt him forever!
Also, and I may be wrong, Ms. Minger is not claiming Campbell is a fraud or a liar or a con artist who's just trying to sell books and keep himself famous, just that he's wrong and his analysis of his data is flawed and biased.
True, but Ms Minger has given Campbell a pretty thorough literary thrashing.
Arguing against tone is rather weak sort of refutation and tone shouldn't be important in the end, but it is important if someone expects people to listen and it certainly seems to explain why CS' hostility is alienating the people who believe the ideas she opposes.
No comment.
In other words, Taubes and Minger seem like nice people trying to do/report on good science, CS seems like someone trying to use her certainty and knowledge of Arthur Schopenhauer's methods to bludgeon others with her version of the Truth. Who's right and who's wrong has very little to do with who people listen to, unfortunately.
That's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it. I agree with Taubes' writings on fats & the diet/heart hypothesis. However, I feel that he's made a big mistake with his carbohydrate hypothesis.
Kurt G. Harris MD said...
ReplyDeleteWhy it is worth arguing with a cartoon now is precisely because the cartoon rabbit-person is promoting a false dichotomy:
The idea that you must believe either HER conception of Taubes ( carbs drive insulin drives fat and nothing else matter) or you must become a nutritional nihilist, retreating to only believing and repeating the useless tautology of calories in = calories out ad nauseum. Like in her response to the potatoes post, where Peter is mocked for even trying to explain something with any complexity.
I disagree. Stating that calories count isn't the same thing as stating that to lose weight, you have to count calories. I can't recall the post to which you refer. Linky?
And perhaps it is useful to challenge the idea that any of us who think it is wrong to call Taubes a liar or fraud or to spell his name Taube$ - are merely, to use Nigel's lovely phrase - "nut swingers" for Gary Taubes.
It is a lovely phrase, as it represents exactly the way in which you hang on his every word (except for the ones that I quoted in the post above).
So Nigel thinks all critics of CS are "nutswingers".
Lovely strawman you just built there. I was referring to the commenters here, not "all critics".
He wants you to know that. So he posted that on CS's blog. Because NIgel feels so strongly about saying things to you directly ; )
O.K. I'll say it here as well. You CS-bashers are Taubes nut-swingers! LOL.
Kurt G. Harris MD said...
ReplyDelete@ Chris
Thanks. I had to avail myself of the urban dictionary for "nutswinger", too. Never been called that before.
How did it feel? ;-p
A little bitty yellow miata does not look very "urban" does it? Who knew Nigel was so "G"?
It's a California, actually. I certainly didn't know I was so "G" (whatever that means).
FFA metabolism is definitely disturbed in diabetes, and may mediate some negative effects of same, although most of the evidence I've seen suggests it is elevated NEFA in the context of altered cytosolic conditions (lack of beta oxidation to match the NEFA availability) that is more responsible.
The idea that the NEFA elevations seen in fasting, sleeping or simply failing to eat carbs with a meal has anything at all to do with pathology of diabetes is not supported by any evidence I've seen.
I agree. See, nobody gets things 100% correct. The "funny turn" that CS had on VLC was probably caused by what you wrote in one of your comments on her blog and what I blogged about after Steve Cooksey had one.
Every move you make,
ReplyDeleteEvery vow you break,
Every smile you fake,
Every claim you stake,
I'll be watching you...
If you think that CS & I have been unfair to Gary Taubes, ask Martin Berkhan for his opinions on Taubes. :-D
ReplyDeleteNigel,
ReplyDeleteThe gluttony comment you referenced was made in context of discussion of the Atkins trial published by Gary Foster and colleagues two weeks before the interview. The trial compared an ad-lib LC diet (i.e. hooray gluttony) with calorie-restricted LF and Med. diets. The context of the statement becomes a bit more clear if you listen from 6:50 through the end of the video instead of just at 8:12, and the fact that discussion of the study immediately bookends his gluttony comment suggests he didn't digress from discussion of the study to make it.
I've read The Diet Delusion twice. I can't recall Taubes ever claiming that LC was a panacea or giving specific dietary advice.
ReplyDeleteI am more inclined to believe a Harvard physics graduate and Stanford aeronautical engineering graduate (Taubes) understands the scientific method better than an anonymous blogger.
I have over 20 years experience in food science (BS, research Masters) and a postgrad degree in exercise science. Yet I will willingly admit that I have massive gaps in my knowledge of these areas.
ReplyDeleteYet some bozo who has read (but not understood) a few published papers thinks they are an authority.
If Peter and Kurt had read CarbSane or Berkhan they could have saved a lot of effort treating diabetic patients. They could have simply given them some extra food and not worried about about insulin, ketoacidosis or urinary glucose. This is because insulin isn't needed for fat storage and carbohydrates don't make you fat. [sarcasm off]
Nigel, did you read the comments to Berkan's article? The guy got schooled. Majorly.
ReplyDelete@Poisonguy
ReplyDeleteExactly where is Martin being schooled? The only person being schooled there is Martin Levac. Maybe you're confusing the two?
@blogblog
So you prefere the opinion of someone who spend his days behind a computer not helping anyone to someone who has acutally helped at least a dozen of person getting an insanly great body recomposition? All good to you. I prefer someone who can walk the talk and have actual result to any academic authority. It's a completly different game when you have someone in front of you who pays for results. You better know what you're doing.
@all
Reading the comments here I see you doing exactly what you accuse CS of doing, ie, being really sure that you are right and that she is wrong. I don't see any mind opening, except maybe from Chris and Kurt. This is sad, as the greatest opportunity to learn are within disagreament. I'm on about every blog and forum possible, and I don't subscribe to any ideology. I test with myself and my clients and keep what works. You guys are doing exactly what the low-fat pusher were doing in the 80'. Just at the other extreme.
When you will actually be helping real people losing weight on the long run, you will recognize that it's not as simple as going low-carb with everyone and that this approach has many shortcoming. No wonder why all the greatest coach don't buy into LC. They faced many situation where it failed.
Finally, what's up with completly out of shape individual asking for CS to post picture? Fortunatly for you someone credibility should not be judge on his physic, because you could no be taking any seriously than an anonymous blogger.
I don't get why so many people are holding so hard to the idea that carbs and insulin are evils. Is it because it makes you feel smarter than eveyrone?
As far as I know, not even Stephan from wholehealthsource nor as it looks Kurt seems to believe that carbs are bad per se. Yet you still have people subscribing to blog such as carb war, carbohydrate can kill you, or adhering to the dogmatic stance that carbohydrate are the single source of obesity and all the disease that we are facing. You really believe so?
I said that in all seriousness, Frank. You may not personally find Levac's argumentation to you liking, and it appears he rubs some people the wrong way here too, but judging solely the arguments he presented, I thought he more than held his own. It's obvious that people over there didn't understand, or accept, the importance of the second law of thermodynamics if one wants to invoke the first law--I thought that was his strong point. But he held his own in other areas too. And I too don't subscribe to any ideology or have anything against Berkan. Just saying.
ReplyDelete@ Nigel
ReplyDeleteDon't be so freaking dense. Of course I meant the critics on this blog, like me and the blog author, Peter, the ones you called "nutswingers", twice now.
Only an internet harpie who pestered GT about G3P before even bothering to read his book would claim I hang on GT's every word.
I don't care if you ever read my blog or listen to my podcast with Jimmy Moore, but if you had, you could avoid looking like an ass by making such a clueless statement. I've said I disagreed with him about starch over and over again, and again right here in this thread.
Airplanes are definitely falling from the sky, Nigel.
I hope you aren't representative of all english engineers. ; )
@Poisonguy
ReplyDeleteI just can't wait for the study showing greater weight loss from LC when protein are matched and caloric intake is controlled, not self-reported.
So far, the bulk of the scientific evidence are proving this to be wrong.
I don't really care about arguments. I care about data. Weight loss data, since this is what we are concern with.
Here is one of the only one well-designed study to date
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046
The mean weight-loss was even greater in the higher-carb group. If you have another study where protein are matched and caloric intake is controlled by design showing different result, please post it. So far there is no hard evidence showing any greater weight loss from LC else than a greater spontaneous reduction in caloric intake.
@Chris: Oh, I see what you're saying. It's the absolute nature of Peter's recent statement about fasting insulin being the end all is what you're on about. Well, sure. But it would have been far less confusing for us poor simpletons if you had simply noted that amputation results in weight loss and requires no reduction in fasting insulin.
ReplyDeleteHere I was thinking your position here was as it is on your blog: that insulin has nothing to do with weight loss. Or am I mis-remembering that too?
This constitutes a scientific discussion with you Chris?
How did G&K design their human study to obtain whatever the result you say they wanted was? Did they inject the women with insulin before measuring levels, or perform liposuction during the carb feeding phase where basal insulin rose?
Yes, my position is that insulin levels *independently* have no impact on body weight.
In cases such as Lustig describes, hypothalamic damage leads to improper insulin secretion leads to overeating and/or underactivity leads to weight gain. But (and I'm not suggesting this torture) lock em in a setting where they can't overeat carbs, fats or both, and they won't gain weight.
Taubes suggests that this phenomenon seen is a minute segment of the population (kids with and surviving brain cancer are rare enough, the hypothalamic damage Lustig refers to is described as rare amongst this tiny segment) is somehow going on en masse since the early 80's.
G&K is but one study where Peter's claim does not hold up.
So please, do tell me how G&K designed the study so that the basal insulin levels had no relation to body weight changes.
@Chris: Oh, I see what you're saying. It's the absolute nature of Peter's recent statement about fasting insulin being the end all is what you're on about. Well, sure. But it would have been far less confusing for us poor simpletons if you had simply noted that amputation results in weight loss and requires no reduction in fasting insulin.
ReplyDeleteHere I was thinking your position here was as it is on your blog: that insulin has nothing to do with weight loss. Or am I mis-remembering that too?
This constitutes a scientific discussion with you Chris?
How did G&K design their human study to obtain whatever the result you say they wanted was? Did they inject the women with insulin before measuring levels, or perform liposuction during the carb feeding phase where basal insulin rose?
Yes, my position is that insulin levels *independently* have no impact on body weight.
In cases such as Lustig describes, hypothalamic damage leads to improper insulin secretion leads to overeating and/or underactivity leads to weight gain. But (and I'm not suggesting this torture) lock em in a setting where they can't overeat carbs, fats or both, and they won't gain weight.
Taubes suggests that this phenomenon seen is a minute segment of the population (kids with and surviving brain cancer are rare enough, the hypothalamic damage Lustig refers to is described as rare amongst this tiny segment) is somehow going on en masse since the early 80's.
G&K is but one study where Peter's claim does not hold up.
So please, do tell me how G&K designed the study so that the basal insulin levels had no relation to body weight changes.
Poisonguy said...
ReplyDeleteNigel, did you read the comments to Berkan's article? The guy got schooled. Majorly.
You're as deluded as the fruitarian nut-swingers on http://mangodurian.blogspot.com/2011/03/primal-food-meat-etc-vs-predominantly.html. Mango got totally pawned in the comments section of http://freetheanimal.com/2011/03/how-the-paleo-diet-works.html. That cognitive bias just keeps rollin' on!
I wonder if this will end up in the spam filter?
Kurt G. Harris MD said...
ReplyDelete@ Nigel
Don't be so freaking dense. Of course I meant the critics on this blog, like me and the blog author, Peter, the ones you called "nutswingers", twice now.
Words mean things. Use them carefully. "All critics" means "everyone who criticises". Would you like me to make it a hat-trick? ;-)
Only an internet harpie who pestered GT about G3P before even bothering to read his book would claim I hang on GT's every word.
You don't. Other commenters seem to. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
I don't care if you ever read my blog or listen to my podcast with Jimmy Moore, but if you had, you could avoid looking like an ass by making such a clueless statement. I've said I disagreed with him about starch over and over again, and again right here in this thread.
See above.
Airplanes are definitely falling from the sky, Nigel.
Is that due to bad design, or bad procedures?
I hope you aren't representative of all english engineers. ; )
Oh, why?
@Nigel
ReplyDeleteYes, words mean things, NIgel. So pay attention to their context. That will help you, I think.
People on the Aspergers spectrum often take things too literally, failing to account for context which is quite obvious to others. Is that you?
"You" can mean singular or plural. I meant plural the first time and singular the second.
ReplyDeleteI am a nerd. I blogged about it. You don't read my blog, so you remain ignorant about me.
Frank, lowering your insulin levels could help you with your hysteria and anger about people who choose to follow a VLC diet.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately it won't raise your intelligence.
I didn't ask specifically for pics, just for any proof at all that readers should believe an anonymous blogger claiming to have a "science background" who won't show her own progress using her own dietary prescriptions for others.
If you don't believe Taubes, why on earth would she somehow be more qualified to give health advice???
@Peter: Pardon my mistake. Seems the first many commenters were under the same impression I was that your post was about me. If it was about the rat paper, why the mention and links at all? You can obviously post on what you like and say what you like. Obviously it tweaked you that I posted about your potato diet post ... at least I commented on what you said when I did. You OTOH go find a rat study and post a video (I can't view videos without crashing this backup I'm on at the moment) so why bother linking to my post at all? Makes no sense to me is all.
ReplyDeleteCarry on ...
Ooh. Someone's at the door! Yay!! My tinfoil shipment has arrived. Now where's that copy of Curious George?
@Kurt: I have not followed your blog regularly, but had read a post or two including your citing of Taubes as inspiration. Several commenters on my blog mentioned what they perceived as a turn-around on your part. A couple of posters on your own forum seemed puzzled as well. If I have that wrong I apologize.
ReplyDelete@Jay: I agree they should have used adults, but what exactly did they "put their human subjects through the mill" with so badly in the study?
ReplyDeleteI would add that by not knowing her actual identity, it frees people to conduct themselves in even "poorer form" based on the perception that "CarbSane" is not a known person, only a known institution.
ReplyDelete... cue Twilight Zone music ...
Maybe PaNu is more than one person! Sure seems that way to me sometimes.
@gunther gatherer: You seem to be under the impression that I didn't read GCBC. Is that right?
ReplyDeleteNot only did I read it, I reference checked it. Not an easy task at times given his shoddy referencing techniques and citing of out of publication texts. Guess he thought nobody would go check when his claims just didn't sound right.
Come to find out he never even read one of his text references! Five years was it? Six?
If anyone wants to email me a free copy of WWGF I'll read it! The dumbed down version of carbs and insulin make you fat ought to be mighty intellectually stimulating. ;)
CS, for someone who didn't have time to get into a "pissing contest", you sure have a lot to say.
ReplyDeleteI've asked 4 times now for any evidence at all that your dietary prescriptions and advice for your readers have worked on you yourself.
You've said more by ignoring all of those requests than you have in all of your blog posts and all your comments here.
@Gunther
ReplyDeleteI'm not aware of CS making any dietary advice. She's claiming that the mechanisms behind LC as explained by Taubes are BS. Why would she need to post pic for that?
Is that really all you can do? Tell me i'm not intelligent? That's all that LC follower have, ad hominem attack? *yawwwnn* Boring, really.
@Gunther
ReplyDeleteFind me someone in the LC community who has gotten these kind of results
http://www.leangains.com/2011/01/client-update.html
http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/client-update.html
I'll certainly stick with these dietary recommandations, adjusted and contextualised, for my clients and myself over a blanket low-carb diet for everyone, thank you.
Frank, read the Carbsane blog for reference, I don't need to hold your hand. And telling people who get metabolic syndrome because they eat carbs that they can indeed eat carbs is in fact giving dietary advice.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, I don't have to tell you you're unintelligent. One glance at your meathead comments shows us that it's stating the obvious.
@Frank
ReplyDeleteI am also quite interested in seeing a controlled isocaloric, isoprotein comparison study done, but the following Volek study is certainly food for thought:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15533250
The VLC group was 28% protein vs. 20% protein for the LF group, but the VLC group was eating approximately 300kcal more per day, and yet managed to have a superior change in mass and composition.
CS,
ReplyDeleteI was admitting you were technically correct to call Peter out on the absolute nature of his insulin statement, and that I did misunderstand that was your point here, but that it would have been easier for me if you'd gone about it in a different way. The tone was meant to be bemused at my own failing rather than hostile toward you.
I've already said I don't know how G&K might have achieved their result given the assumption of insulin as the driving factor in weight loss--there is apparently improved insulin sensitivity in the iso-caloric LC diet as demonstrated by the glucose test, which is unusual given the effect of high FFAs associated with LC diets on glucose uptake--but my lack of ingenuity and knowledge of the researches unstated procedures hardly refutes the notion that--given the context of the study's stated purpose, cited works, and the other research published by G&K--it's possible G&K engineered their results to demonstrate exactly what they claimed to be studying.
Instead of a refutation, you attempt to change the subject to Taubes. Sure, it'd be nice to know why he thinks there isn't as strong a compensatory mechanism against insulin-related weight loss as he believes there is for low-calorie diets, but citing a pathology that exaggerates Taubes' preferred pathway supports rather than refutes Taubes' position--obesity being pathological in his mind, after all--and certainly does nothing to address my suppositions about the G&K study.
@Kurt or anyone else
ReplyDeleteCurious about Kurt's mention about Auschwitz & diabetes. I tried nosing around Google...starvation, concentration camps, diabetes...and didn't find what I was looking for.
Can someone help me see the connection, or link me?
Many thanks.
CS,
ReplyDeleteI was admitting you were technically correct to call Peter out on the absolute nature of his insulin statement, and that I did misunderstand that was your point here, but that it would have been easier for me if you'd gone about it in a different way. The tone was meant to be bemused at my own failing rather than hostile toward you.
I've already said I don't know how G&K might have achieved their result given the assumption of insulin as the driving factor in weight loss--there is apparently improved insulin sensitivity in the iso-caloric LC diet as demonstrated by the glucose test, which is unusual given the effect of high FFAs associated with LC diets on glucose uptake--but my lack of ingenuity and knowledge of the researches unstated procedures hardly refutes the notion that--given the context of the study's stated purpose, cited works, and the other research published by G&K--it's possible G&K engineered their results to demonstrate exactly what they claimed to be studying.
Instead of a refutation, you attempt to change the subject to Taubes. Sure, it'd be nice to know why he thinks there isn't as strong a compensatory mechanism against insulin-related weight loss as he believes there is for low-calorie diets, but citing a pathology that exaggerates Taubes' preferred pathway supports rather than refutes Taubes' position--obesity being pathological in his mind, after all--and certainly does nothing to address my suppositions about the G&K study.
@kds
ReplyDeleteNot to be picky, but the food was self report from dietary journal. We know how bad people are at reporting food. This just can't be use as a solid evidence. The study I presented at least controlled everything the subject ate. The result are also different.
@Gunther
Not much more to say to you.
Spam filters seem to keep eating my responses... Try try agian...
ReplyDeleteCS,
I was admitting you were technically correct to call Peter out on the absolute nature of his insulin statement, and that I did misunderstand that was your point here, but that it would have been easier for me if you'd gone about it in a different way. The tone was meant to be bemused at my own failing rather than hostile toward you.
I've already said I don't know how G&K might have achieved their result given the assumption of insulin as the driving factor in weight loss--there is apparently improved insulin sensitivity in the iso-caloric LC diet as demonstrated by the glucose test, which is unusual given the effect of high FFAs associated with LC diets on glucose uptake--but my lack of ingenuity and knowledge of the researches unstated procedures hardly refutes the notion that--given the context of the study's stated purpose, cited works, and the other research published by G&K--it's possible G&K engineered their results to demonstrate exactly what they claimed to be studying.
Instead of a refutation, you attempt to change the subject to Taubes. Sure, it'd be nice to know why he thinks there isn't as strong a compensatory mechanism against insulin-related weight loss as he believes there is for low-calorie diets, but citing a pathology that exaggerates Taubes' preferred pathway supports rather than refutes Taubes' position--obesity being pathological in his mind, after all--and certainly does nothing to address my suppositions about the G&K study.
---
Fank,
Just because you don't like the reporting methods in a particular study doesn't discount the study's results any more than noting that Barry Sears of Zone Diet fame ran the study you're touting.
@carbsane
ReplyDeleteIt's just my opinion really (and YMMV) that being locked up for 14 weeks in a clinical research unit, fed a liquid diet of varying composition (not necessarily designed for your clinical benefit, but for experimental purposes) for 12 weeks and being subjected to a weekly glucose tolerance test and a twice a week blood test (after being deprived of food from 7pm the night before) would be a bit arduous, espeically for a juvenile (and all three subjects on the hypocaloric arm of the study were under 18).
These days you have to submit to the scrutiny of an ethics committee for anything involving humans even listening tests on adult university students who probably submit themselves voluntarily to hearing-damaging noise levels on a weekly basis.
BTW, Peter included the rat paper because it was reference no 9 in G&K and they mention it in the introduction.
I also find it interesting that G&K comment (in a manner that suggests 'this is common knowledge and I don't need to put a reference in for that') that
"the markedly obese female ingests a greater absolute amount of carbohydrate ....but also that carbohydrate constitutes a greater percentage of the total calories consumed than in the typical diet of the person of normal weight". This is in reference to % carbohydrate averaging 48% (Table 1).
gunther gatherer said...
ReplyDelete...And telling people who get metabolic syndrome because they eat carbs that they can indeed eat carbs is in fact giving dietary advice...
See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/2011/02/insulin-resistance-solutions-to.html.
People get metabolic syndrome because they are too sedentary and/or they don't get enough UVB on their skin.
Jin said...
ReplyDelete@Kurt or anyone else
Curious about Kurt's mention about Auschwitz & diabetes...
He was being ironic. He should have used a smily.
@ Jin
ReplyDeleteSorry for the confusion. People who are starved don't tend to have diabetes from the starvation, even though FFA or NEFA are sky high at least early on.
I was being ironic but came perilously close to fulfulling Godwin's law.
CS-
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but this link posted up in the comments: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-i-eat-low-carb-response-to-reader.html#comment-form seems to indicate that you were always quite large at around 210 pounds and then lost 40 pounds on a low carb diet. That is expected and for most of us a completely normal response to such a dietary change. So, you then find yourself at 170 pounds due to carb restriction and this is where I get lost. You go "off" of low carb (why?) and start to gain weight fast. You say you then gained 60 pounds total. Wasn't each pound, or even each 10 pound increment a wake-up call sufficiently loud to steer you back toward low carb? I'm trying to understand the "sanity" that occurred with that suspension of disbelief. What did you eat after the low carb phase that caused that weight gain? How many grams of fructose per day? How does one Rip Van Winkle through a 60 pound gain?
Perhaps I can concoct an even better conspiracy theory than those presented here. I imagine CS coming across GCBC, taking it to heart (and to the supermarket) and using it to lose 40 pounds (with ease). She becomes so enamored by Taubes that she starts to contact him, moves into his area, tries to run into him as often as possible etc. She finally works up the courage to ask him out due to her newly acquired human weight but he declines, says he's married etc. She then associates that refusal with GCBC and devotes her life to dissecting it and showing him to be a liar. This explains the jilted lover tone of all of the posts. A short while and many Snackwell's cookies later, she's 230 pounds and gnashing her teeth because deep down she knows that in spite of any semantics, or biochemical minutiae that he may have misinterpreted, he's still ultimately correct and that her personal experience is a strongly compelling affirmation of his theories.
How'd I do?
Peter: never would have thunk a cartoon about a rat could stir up so much venom. Kind of reminds me of the good old days with 'Bruce K.'.
ReplyDeleteFrank said...
ReplyDelete@Gunther
Find me someone in the LC community who has gotten these kind of results.
I will counter with Michael Phelps who lives entirely on junk food.
Body building (and elite sport in general) is all about genetics and doping not diet.
Travis Culp said...
ReplyDeleteSo, you then find yourself at 170 pounds due to carb restriction and this is where I get lost. You go "off" of low carb (why?) and start to gain weight fast.
Have you read any of Atkins' books? You don't stay in induction forever. Jeez!
blogblog said...
ReplyDeleteI will counter with Michael Phelps who lives entirely on junk food.
[Irony]That's the Michael Phelps who sits on his arse/ass all day long, right?[/i]
@blogblog
ReplyDeleteHow is that a counter evidence? It actually prove that you can be lean while eating carbs & junk.
So you believe that the individual that Martin helped are on drugs?
You guys really have an explanation to every fact that disagree with your hypothesis.
@Chris
No, but my critic of the study is pretty valid, and i've presented a study which adress that problem and did not report the same kind of result. I'm going to go with the stronger design to based my conclusion on.
We're chosing inbetween a study where in one case the caloric intake was controlled by the researcher and in the other case it was self reported by individual, and it's a pretty well known fact in the literrature that people are doing very poor at reporting intake. We all have our standard of what constitue strong evidence I guess.
Frank said...
ReplyDelete@blogblog
So you prefere the opinion of someone who spend his days behind a computer not helping anyone to someone who has acutally helped at least a dozen of person getting an insanly great body recomposition?
People like Berkhan only show the handful of successes they have had. They totally ignore the thousands that try their programs and don't get the desired results.
I prefer someone who can walk the talk and have actual result to any academic authority. It's a completly different game when you have someone in front of you who pays for results. You better know what you're doing.
The sport science academic staff at my university trained Olympic athletes and professional sports teams.
Frank said...
ReplyDelete@blogblog
How is that a counter evidence? It actually prove that you can be lean while eating carbs & junk.
Phelps burns over 7000KCal per day in training. That is why he is lean. If he stopped training and kept his diet he would be obese and diabetic within a matter of months
So you believe that the individual that Martin helped are on drugs?
Over 90% of professional athletes use drugs. The rate for bodybuilders is even higher.
Elite bodybuilders are only lean at competition time. They semi-starve for several weeks to lose excess body fat. The rest of the time they are quite fat.
Many personal trainers undergo extensive cosmetic procedures including liposuction and breast/chest/calf implants to obtain that "perfect" physique.
You guys really have an explanation to every fact that disagree with your hypothesis.
Qualified people who are actually involved in the diet and exercise field know that less than 1% of people can ever achieve the results that Berkhan claims no matter how they train or what they eat.
Berkhan trains 10,000 people and 10 get the desired results. Does that make him a genius?
The fact is that it is impossible to perform statistically valid nutrition experiments without locking 100,000 randomly selected people up for 20 years and feeding them a controlled diet.
ReplyDelete@ Nigel
ReplyDeleteThe one atkins book I read made it pretty clear that when you add back carbs after induction, you are kind of supposed to pay attention to if you start to gain weight back. If so, you adjust accordingly..
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@blogblog
ReplyDeleteThe claims that you are making are really making me suspicious that you have any idea what you are talking about.
Well, just look at Martin Berkan facebook and see how many people are doing his program on their own and getting awesome results.
Why should I care what your staff at your university do? How is this revelant of anything?
You probably have not look at the links that i've provided for Martin clients, as clearly none of them are bodybuilder nor athletes. They are regular Joe with average shape, training 3 time a week and starting with BF around 15-20%, getting it down, in most case, to single digit. Some are college student and other are familly dad. Surely they are all on steroids.
1% of individual being able to get to single digit body fat? A lot of personnal trainer having implant?
There are many bodybuilders who are lean year round. They are not as lean as on stage, obviously, as they get down to about 4% and are dehydrated, but they are probably around 12% year round. I'm not sure I consider 12% "quite fat". Old school bodybuilder used to bulk like crazy and getting fat, but it's not the case anymore, especially in the drug-free, as you run a lot of chance of losing muscle mass if you have to much weight to lose before hitting the stage.
You say that it's impossible to get a statistically valid study unless you have 100,000 subjects?
I'm actually thinking that you're trolling. At least i'm hoping so.
@blogblog
Well, just look at Martin Berkan facebook and see how many people are doing his program on their own and getting awesome results.
Don't you know testimonials are meaningless.
It is quite possible that people would have got equal or better results using another programme. You can only tell this by conducting a scientific trial trial.
Why should I care what your staff at your university do? How is this revelant of anything?
It is totally relevant because you claimed that academics sit in front of computer screens rather than training people.
I can assure you no professional sports team or elite athlete would ever consider employing someone like Berkhan as a trainer or nutritionist. They hire university qualified experts for this.
They are regular Joe with average shape, training 3 time a week and starting with BF around 15-20%, getting it down, in most case, to single digit.
Ordinary People lose weight by diet and exercise. Who'd a thunk it?
How many dropped out? How many were
diabetics before starting or had a BMI over 35? How many maintained the weight loss for over five years?
1% of individual being able to get to single digit body