Wednesday, October 21, 2020

Linoleic acid makes you hungry

This paper reports what happens to hsCRP in people of differing fatty acid desaturase genotypes when you increase their linoleic acid intake from around 4% of calories to around 11% of calories. It's neutral or bad, depending on your genetics. Which is irrelevant to anyone remotely informed about what a human LA intake might reasonably be. So we can ignore the research on hsCRP.

Inflammatory response to dietary linoleic acid depends on FADS1 genotype

Two things come out that are worth noting. First is that, from Fig 4, that increased dietary LA mostly decreases the arachidonic acid in plasma phospholipids and cholesterol esters. I made a throw away comment in a previous post that I would expect supplementing any C18 PUFA would inhibit the formation of any C20 and C22 fatty acids. I got lucky on that one, AA levels mostly dropped with LA supplementation, one didn't change.

Much more interesting is the effect of the intervention, irrespective of genotype, on food intake. Like this:






"Based on food records, energy intake was significantly increased during the intervention period, which could be considered a third limitation. However, there were no changes in body weight or BMI, and an increase in energy intake was similar in both genotype groups. It is likely that the increased energy intake was at least partly related to the fact that oil consumption was carefully recorded during the intervention period."

I think we can describe this "likely" effect as ad hoc hypothesis number 3264.

A more reasonable ad hoc hypothesis is that increasing your linoleic acid intake from 4% of calories to 11% of calories makes you hungry. If this change were to have been caused by a projected loss of half a kilo of ingested lipid in to adipocytes over a year, that would be less than 50g per month. Easily masked by a number of biological variations.

Peter

58 comments:

Eric said...

Very interesting, may have to go and look at the paper itself.

Slightly off topic, this was pretty interesting:
https://nyti.ms/2T9DXsO

Apparently US cattle get fed mainly on grain, mostly corn, these days, and distiller's grain, i.e. depleted corn which is low in starch and high in corn oil. Guess that makes beef more like industrial pork which is high in PUFA these days.

Not only in the US. When we buy breakfast bacon in Germany, most regular bacon has soft fat right out of the refrigerator that will melt to almost nothing when fried whereas organic bacon is stiffer and retains more volumen when fried. And organic farming does not even forbid feeding grains and corn as long as it is organic.

Peter said...

Eric,

The beauty of ruminants is that it doesn't matter much what you feed them. What comes out are palmitic and stearic acids plus some oleic. They are our protection from PUFA.

Join the Ruminati!

Peter

Peter said...

Oh, and many years ago I visited an organic smallholding where an elderly (more or less pet status) organic pig, fed on organic grain, was so arthritic it couldn't get up on its organically arthritic joints!

Made me think at the time.

Peter

JR said...

Hi, I am in for Ruminati.

For milk, there seems to be some effect on the food. This made me a bit more bio positive from sceptic. Data from USA must differ from data from Europe, but there you go:

"For each, we find that grassmilk is markedly different than both organic and conventional milk. The omega‐6/omega‐3 ratios were, respectively, 0.95, 2.28, and 5.77 in grassmilk, organic, and conventional milk; total omega‐3 levels were 0.049, 0.032, and 0.020 g/100 g milk;"

Studies by which I tried to correct the local nutritionist, who claimed there are no differenncies in between milks...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0082429
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/fsn3.610

JR

Justin said...

Excellent post Peter! This is why I started raising hair sheep 4 years ago and really only feed them grain (not much) if I can't find good hay in the winter. Also, when the dams are lactating and happen to throw tripplets I might feed them a little if the alfalfa isn't of good quality. Working on having good forage pretty much all year round though. I will be finishing my lamb rams on cereal grain forage (before it blooms and brassicas). I wonder if the cereal grains will still have gluten content or is only when they form seed? Anyway, I really want to do pigs too as most of my property is wood lot and and full of white and red oaks. This year the acorns are heavy (like they are every few years). Wish I had bought a couple guinea hogs this past summer to play with. Thanks again for the awesome posts.

cavenewt said...

Peter said "The beauty of ruminants is that it doesn't matter much what you feed them. What comes out are palmitic and stearic acids plus some oleic. They are our protection from PUFA."

But but but... What about the push for grass-fed? What about the meat comparisons where corn-fed beef has a higher PUFA content? And is there real difference between grass fed/grain fed/industrial-feedlot beef?

This is from the US perspective and irrespective of the quality of animals' lives. I already avoid industrial meat for that reason.

Peter said...

cave, as far as I can find grass vs grain finished leaves the omega 6s in meat essentially unchanged (from a biologically perspective at least, sometimes the p value is less than 0.05 but clinically the difference is irrelevant). There is some effect on the ALA levels and so the ratio changes. But: I have no time for omega 3:6 ratio. From the mouse study in https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2020/08/so-you-want-some-dha.html it looks like pretty well any non-zero amount of ALA is enough to make DHA provided LA is low. Using any sort of omega 3 to try and offset a diet with 11% of calories from LA puts you on a hiding to nothing. Current catastrophic saturophobia makes any concept of omega 3:6 ratio meaningless as LA overwhelms everything. But high ALA, as in drinking varnish, will actually drop DHA level in plasma phospholipids too...

Justin, sounds good. Our goats get 3 handfuls of short feed a day plus ad lib pasture plus some hay in Winter. Should be working to start milking Spring after next... No time to arrange a trip to a billy this Autumn.

Peter

Justin said...

Interesting info on pufa content manipulation in sheep.

http://www.tamaracksheep.com/uncategorized/is-lamb-the-land-salmon/#:~:text=one%20refer%20to%20grass%20fed,6%20tends%20to%20encourage%20inflammation.

Justin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Justin said...

Peter, awesome! I just picked up two Nigerian Dwarf does and will definitely be renting a buck when time to breed. My buddy is actually one of the biggest meat goat producers in central VA and is looking to sell off 70 does. I think I might pick up a couple so I can start working with larger framed goats too. He likes boers crossed with a dairy breed for good milk output. Starting to get excited about the goats. What breed do you happen to have? Ultimately if I go larger scale, I really want to get into Kikos or some sort of Kiko cross for good parasite resistance and ability to grow on marginal forage/browse.

Passthecream said...

Peter: Ruminati, si!

JR: I remember when a local heard of cows got into a patch of garlic weed. The milk was very flavourful.

Justin, quite a lot of dorpers around here, the hotter climate suits them. I helped a local farmer with a large herd of milk goats a long time ago, Saanens mostly with a few Alpines and Nubians. Not an experience I care to repeat!

Peter said...

Hi Pass and Justin, Our goats are absolutely pets, their core function is to keep the paddock grazed and to make work for me in shifting electric fences! So cheese will be the plan rather than meat. They are Golden Guernsey pedigree and have the temperament of Labrador Retrievers but with four times as many stomachs.

The fully grass fed lamb fatty acids look a lot like the elephant data, which seems like our best equivalent of mammoth. Of course the most interesting values would be for adipose tissue, working from the lipivore perspective...

Peter

Passthecream said...

Thinking about fatty acid profiles of grass eaters, when I pulled into my driveway this afternoon there were six fat rabbits jumping around out on the footpath which reminded me that 'rabbit starvation' is a condition often warned against as a type of excess protein intake, but it is hard to find evidence for it in the real world except in the case of people with kidney problems. Supposedly too much protein and not enough fat causes this problem.

However rabbits are grazers like sheep and hindgut fermenters like elephants, pseudo ruminants, so you'd expect them to have similar fatty acid profiles and a rabbit hunting friend of mine assures me that you can get plenty of fat from rabbits if you don't restrict yourself to just eating the muscle meat. He makes very tasty rabbit sausages by mincing all the appropriate meaty and fatty bits together.

Passthecream said...

It's mildly amusing that there should be such a concept as 'rabbit starvation' but not a similar concept of eg potato starvation.

Justin said...

Peter, I got my Nigerians to keep as pets and sell their kids to neighbors. My Kathadin/Dorper mixes are for meat. I'm breeding 11 ewes this year with two different rams. Some of them will be first timers, so hopefully they will just throw singles. I did get two sets of tripplets this year. It's a little tricky. They definitely keep my pasture mowed and put a lot of pressure on the weeds too. It's amazing how much things have improved just be having them graze. I've heard of the gurnsey breed of goat, but not familiar with them. Need to do some research. Would love to find a dairy breed that has high butterfat content.

Pass, I keep Dorper/Katahdin crosses. Dorpers are added to give them a thicker frame, but I'm looking into the Texels now, as they seem to have some parasite resistance unlike the Dorper. I love the Katahdin breed as they are pretty quick growing and can be immune to parasites. They also shed out well. They are awesome browsers too and excellent mother's! I know a guy who's family farm had up to 1000 dorpers at at some points, but that was in South Africa. Parasites aren't really a problem there with their arid climate. I'm playing with a couple Barbados BlackBelly mixes this year too. They are probably some of the most parasite resistant breeds in existence. They just don't grow as fast as the Katahdin/Dorpers. I'm definitely familiar with the nubians, Saanen, Alpine breeds. I think my buddy likes to Mike Saanen genetics with his boers. Anyway, I could talk sheep/goats all day long. Lol!

Eric said...

I kind of hijacked the thread but you all went along! I just like that, Ruminati!

I suppose the pig was arthritic because it had a carbs only diet, not because of the grains being organically grown?

Garlic milk, sounds like something you could market in the right places!

So we've had lots of replies that even ruminants' milk and body fat will change depending on what they eat but is there any support for the notion that they can convert PUFA to SFA and MUFA?

Passthecream said...

From the Guardian:

"Britain’s oldest person, Joan Hocquard, who drove ambulances during the second world war, has died aged 112.

Hocquard died at her home in Poole, Dorset, on Saturday. Her nephew, Paul Reynolds, 74, said she had always sought to live life to the full and that she “loved eating butter and cream and didn’t believe in dieting”."

Peter said...

Possibly a positive outlook helps too. But butter is pretty yummy, I have to admit...

Peter

Peter said...

Eric,

I've not seen tracer studies or the like.

Peter

Czarius Endaya said...

very true

Eric said...

I have been wondering why Thailand is still doing so well. It has well educated elites and in places can be well organized, but there is also a lot of people and huge income disparities. Can we blame it on coconut cream?

Gyan said...

Indian state of Kerala has best health statistics despite being relatively poor. Usually the discrepancy is explained due to greater socialism in Kerala but again it could be due to great consumption of coconut s

Passthecream said...

Gyan, it is an attractive idea, more so if it's the sat. fat content which could be responsible for any effect but it looks like it doesn't match the reality of coconut consumption per capita:

https://www.helgilibrary.com/indicators/coconut-consumption-per-capita/

where Brazil is half way up the table and Sri Lanka is right at the top whereas Brazil is completely foobar and Sri Lanka is having an explosion of CV cases atm although not too many deaths in total.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sri-lanka/


Hmmmm.

Justin said...

Eric, slight details are where the real gems sometimes are. Lol! My boss and I dug up a paper a while back on using a GC to quantify fatty acids from food samples. I have been trying to get my old 5890 back up and running like a Swiss watch. Hoping to get a profile on one of these guys. Both visceral and subcutaneous and compare to store bought and hair sheep that are grain finished. As soon as I find where I put the paper, I'll try and remember to post it here.

https://youtu.be/AHjg8qO0BLg

Peter said...

Gyan and Pass, I'd always assumed it was the high background radiation that was beneficial. I might accept coconut over southern Indian preference for seed oil as a possibility...

Peter

Penguinstew said...

Hi Pass Cream and Justin

Had a couple of (pet) Saanens a decade ago. There used to be a legal pleading called a "surebutter"* --which became the nickname of the head-butting billy.

*A reply to a rebutter or answer. Pronounced "surra-butter" -- but either way, he sure was a butter.

Eric said...

@ Peter: Hmm, radiation hormesis? Data for Asia are hard to come by. I doubt that a rather large country like Thailand will have uniformly high radiation. I found this for Europe, and even that is pretty sketchy and does not really follow Covid infection patterns:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0265931X17307087

Iran has a few radiation hot spots, but they are small. The country as a whole is not doing well, so it would be interesting to see if the hot spots are doing better.

Eric said...

@ Justin: I would love to see that paper. I have always wondered if I could buy an old GC off ebay to test olive oil etc., but would have to do find a primer on what to look for first.

Passthecream said...

Peter, seed oil consumption might correlate with the lower incidences in Kerala and Thailand.

This chart from the same data library is incomplete because it is partly paywalled, but enough information given in the text (assuming they are not including coconut oil in vegetable oils) and assuming that Thailand has similar low consumption of those oils to neighbouring Cambodia and Laos. I'll go out on a limb and guess that coconut is the dominant lipid source in the south east Asian countries rather than seed oils. Pork also? And coconut in Kerala?

https://www.helgilibrary.com/indicators/vegetable-oil-consumption-per-capita/

" Spain ranked the highest in vegetable oil consumption per capita with 31.9 kg followed by USA and Italy. On the other end of the scale was Lesotho with 1.00 kg, Laos with 1.80 kg and Cambodia with 1.90 kg. "

Passthecream said...

Cambodia only has 8 active cases of Covid19 officially reported atm, Laos has reported only 24 in total with two currently active and no deaths. Vietnam is currently sitting at 80 active cases in a population of nearly 100 million people.

Passthecream said...

More recent oil data for Brazil has veg oil consumption at 43kg per head per annum.

Might have to rename this caper the veg-oil virus.

Eric said...

I'm surprised about Spain unless they count olive oil as vegetable oil. True, many dishes are deep fried or stored in oil, but that tends to be olive oil, which is grown locally in large amounts. Imagine about 0.8 kg per week of other oils on top of that?

I would guess that Vietnamese do a lot with sesame, peanut, soy and canola oil, not necessarily coconut.

Eric said...

Having followed the link, Italy, Greece, France, and Portugal are all high in that graph, so I am pretty sure they count olive oil as vegetable oil. Did they sleep through their biology class?

Stefan said...

Yes they do... they apparently use faostat data. I've checked Spain. I have a slightly different number, but olive oil is for sure in it.
I calculate 28,45 kg per year, including 10,93 kg of olive oil.
The site mentions 31,9 kg.

Passthecream said...

From a Hyperlipid perspective the pufa content of any oil consumed is the parameter of interest. Depending on quality 28.45kg of olive oil could contain between 1kg and 6kg of pufa, add that to the pufa content of the other oil types.

That (un)cluster in se Asia is certainly curious, and a global correlation between pufa intake and viral outcomes is an interesting possibility but only one of many. Eg maybe in Vietnam etc they have previously been widely exposed to a virus similar enough to sars cov2 to give them strong immunity, or perhaps the testing and reporting is inadequate, or ???

Passthecream said...

Eric, there is a huge amount of olive oil produced where I live because olives grow like weeds but it still attracts a premium price so mostly the cheap seed oils end up in people's frypans and takeaway foods.

Passthecream said...

Sorry, numerical error up there.

Gyan said...

Here the PUFA seed oils are regarded as being more classy and health-wise superior but almost all the readymade food--like packaged chips, biscuits, salted snacks are made in palm oil.
So, the home food tends to be higher in PUFA than ready made food.

Stefan said...

In the Netherlands it's not. Most stuff is made in/ with rapeseed/canola with approximately 25% LA.
I wish I could buy chips (or crisps as they call them in the UK) here made in palm oil.

Eric said...

In Portugal it is easy to come by chips/crisps made in olive oil, and I have seen them in Spain and France, too. In Germany, not.

Mayonnaise is driving me crazy. Looked at the organic store, six diferent kinds, all made with sunflower oil. Aldi's, one kind, canola oil, ok, better than sunflower but still best avoided. Pasteurized egg to make my own? No shop carries them, and even on amazon, only egg powder is available. Yuck! That was the oxidized stuff the Russion fed to the rabbits which gave rise to the cholesterol legend.

Passthecream said...

Eric, there are high oleic 82%, and high oleic + high stearic 72%/18% respectively, varieties of sunflower oil available. Ethically sourced palm is also available. Macadamia oil is only 4% linoleic. But butter makes good mayonnaise and coconut oil also does.

Eric said...

Pass, I know about high oleic and I can buy it here, but this is not what is in chips and mayonnaise. High stearic is news to me, will have to investigate if this is available.

The problem with making my own mayonnaise is that my wife won't condone raw eggs, and having unsuccessfully tried to source pasteurized whole egg, I suppose I will have to learn how to do it myself.

Coming to think of it, maybe I can use my Annova sous vide stick for that? What temperatur and do I do it on the egg or on the mayonnaise?

Stefan said...

Pasteurizing eggs is easy. Especially when you own an Anova :) I do make my own mayo with high oleic oil.
I have the eggs approximately 15 minutes in 60 degrees Celcius water. The whites start to get cloudy at that time. Then I make mayo of the yokes.

Eric said...

Stefan, thanks for the info. Do you "boil" the eggs in their shell and then crack up later?

Just guessing, I would have gone for slightly colder and longer.

Eric said...

Sous vide and eggs were interestings seach words:
https://nicostanitzok.de/rohe-eier-pasteurisieren-mit-sous-vide/

This guy uses 57°C and 2 hours based on studies that show that one hour is sufficient. 60°C seems to be the curdling temperature, by the way.

Stefan said...

Yes, I crack them up later. Yokes solidify a little later then the whites. Since I don't use the Whites I don't care they get cloudy already. I start with room temperature eggs and put them in warm water. I've seen a few websites that have them for a couple of minutes at 60 degrees, with this approach the yokes will reach that. Now I think about it, it might be somewhat short. On the other hand, an hour seems very long. If I look at time/temperature tables for chicken 25 minutes is sufficient for meat.

JR said...

Eric, same conclusion as you (in Algarve) "Aldi's, one kind, canola oil, ok, better than sunflower but still best avoided." You are right, the least bad of the worst... Even the local Mayo "with olive oil" has very little of it, in comparison to sunflower/soy oil...

The neighboring Apolonia has natural macadamia nuts, lidl does not (as they do in my native coutry).

I am delighted of the many canned fishes in olive oil (of which there is very little).

Nice selection of local olive oils, in which I have more confidence than spanish / italian products.

The famous "mediterranian diet" does never include cured fatty ham etc, which in offered in abundance in each and every store. Delighted as well of the "black pork" or iberian pork, which seems to roam freely in nature. The fatty strips are the best! This must be so close to "bio" it gets naturally.

This must be the country, where it is hardest to find imported wines! The domestic take more than 90% of shelves. However, it is hard to find a bad one (even cork failure is seldom)
JR

Eric said...

JR, I too trust Portugese oils more than others. I've had many good wines there and bought in Germany, but also many fails.

The French are the same with their wines. You can find 10 rows of French wines and then one small section of one row for imported wines.

Justin said...

Eric, I'm still looking for it. I seem to have misplaced it. Speaking of HP 5890's, my friend has two of them kicking around at his plant. Was thinking about getting one into service so we can have two available with different columns. I would love to have a GCMS and an HPLC. Have a pump for an HPLC (LOL) and almost had a GCMS, but the idiots that were letting us use it didn't seal the detector when they mothballed it. We were so disappointed. I had run 220 lines to our GC room and everything as it was originally brought over from Korea. As soon as I have that paper in hand, I'll post up the link.

Eric said...

Stefan, I did succeed in making mayonnaise. I "boiled" two eggs at 57°C for two hours. The whites had indeed turned slighly cloudy, and separating the yolks was a mess (broke on yoke and only got half of it, got the other one, but plenty of white, too, that was still clinging to it). Well, there are two schools of thought, whether you should use whole egg or just the yolks.

Anyway, since both my olive oil can and Dijon mustard jar had been open a while, I didn't trust them, so I put everything in a jar and "boiled" it some more. I then used a "Zauberstab" (~magic wand, basically the business end of a blender on a hand held stick) to emulgate in the jar and it worked like a charm.

Two takeaways:
- The peppery taste of olive oil in mayonnaise needs getting used to or I need to find a milder oil.
- Next time, I am going to put the raw eggs right into the jar, add mustard, oil, salt, pepper, lemon juice and pasteurize the whole jar.

Eric said...

Justin,

if you are still into finding a heat exchanger, here are some ebay auction numbers to give you an idea what is available here. Maybe that will make it easier to find similar listings in the US or get someone to ship to you:

274338549465 (used part from professional unit)
142478758775 (commercial vendor, this part will allow recuperate moisture)
142895630604 (same vendor, aluminum part)

Passthecream said...

Eric "The peppery taste of olive oil".

Apart from the fact I don't like the taste of tasty olive oil, it exactly provides the reason that I also am deeply suspicious of it. The pure fatty constituents of O.O. don't have much flavour so what exactly is it in there that does?

I know, you have to eat something but...

I'd rather have some lard based mayonnaise if I felt the need of it. Similar lipid composition in that plus great flavour.

Stefan said...

I've sourced some Biskin extra heiß in the past in Germany (K+K). It contains 12g/100g linoleic acid according to the label. It is a neutral tasting oil and I used that for mayonnaise. This week I was lazy and bought some "half full mayonaise". It contains less oil and 10g/100g of product linoleic acid. So will give that a try.

Eric said...

@ Pass: In virgin oil, phytosterins, corotines, weird alcohols. I quite like the taste in salad or anything I fry. There is hot pressed and refined olive oil "for frying" from Bertolli, but I don't trust them (they were caught red handed more than once).

@ Stefan: This stuff? https://www.biskin.de/pflanzenoele/biskin-extra-heiss/

Contains sunflower, canola and safflower oil. Are you sure it contains just 12% linoleic acid? Why would it be on the label? You will see the amount of unsaturated fat on the label, but that is just MUFA + PUFA. And sometimes it will tell you 12% sunflower oil on the ingridients list but there could be more linoleic acid from other oils.

I have been thinking to use Biskin (100% refined and hydrogenated coconut oil) except that the mayonnaise will probably turn out too solit to use.

Stefan said...

Yes, it's high oleic. I've made a picture of the label and that says 12% PUFA:
https://i.postimg.cc/qBLjWfsg/20200408-200702.jpg

Coconut oil won't work that well because it will solidify and then break your emulsion. But if you make it and then directly consume it it can work. But basically you're making hollandaise sauce then.

Eric said...

Stefan, thanks for the pic. It is unusal that they actually list MUFA and PUFA separately in the nutrition information. That breakdown of
7.6% SFA
79.3% MUFA
13% PUFA

is right within the published spectrum of olive oil, although I am not sure that unadultered olive oil can really be in the upper half of the the 2 - 21% given by wikipedia.de.

Not bad but I wish they'd get rid of the PUFA. Regular safflower oil has 53-83% linoleic acid, but apparently there is a high oleic variant of safflower that yields only 10 - 20% of linoleic acid. Maybe this is what they used.

By the way, I meant to type Palmin above. That is the very solid and unperishable hydrogenated coconut "oil" (rather: brick) we can buy here.

Eric said...

This might be a handy reference to turn to:
http://www.dgfett.de/material/fszus.php

While most compositions are from scientific publications, the ranges given for olive oil are
according to Trade Standard Applying to Olive Oil and Olive Pomace Oil by the International Council on Olive Oil (Madrid) 1998. Does anyone smell commercial influence?

Eric said...

Just looked at the labels of two kinds of Olive Oil I had:

- Aldi's organic virgin blend (bottled in Italy): 14 g SFA, 71 g MUFA, 7.0 g PUFA
- Andorhinha Portugese virgin olive oil: 15 g SFA, 69 g MUFA, 6.9 g PUFA (this had all kinds of analyses on it for acid content, peroxides, wax and K270 and K232 and Delta K, potassium isotopes??)

Seems preferable to Biskin to me.