Friday, August 22, 2008

Conditioning Research on bad carbs

Just a 10 second post:

Chris over at Conditioning Research just emailed this link to me. You're all reading Conditioning Research I hope. There'll be a full post over there on it some time soon.

Enjoy.

Peter

OK, now back to the incredible publications from Krauss. He's really getting in the way of signalling molecules for vascular disease.

22 comments:

gunther gatherer said...

Thanks for this, Peter. I'm an avid reader of that blog too.

By the way, finally got around to making JK's optimal ice cream last night, though I did it with mascarpone, 20g dextrose, coconut milk, egg yolks and vanilla extract. It was too good to be good for you!

But man, it must pack an enormous amount calories, including many many grams of fat. I'm still so puzzled by your low weight!

By the way, you replied to a comment of mine a few days ago that you thought you'd have reached 60kg on OD just as you did on Atkins. Do you think you'd have done this on the regimen you're on now (3000-3500kcal a day), or would it have been reduced to a good 1600kcal a day (as JK recommends for weight loss)?

Regards, G

Eric said...

Peter, this is very much off-topic, but I would be very, very grateful if you might one day apply your biochem knowledge to a post on the effects (ill, presumably) of alcohol on a LC-diet. We do, after all, live in a culture that is saturated in grains and ... er, drink. I gave up pasta and bread, which I loved inordinately, quite literally overnight. But giving up wine and beer? This has proved much harder (partly because the effect on me is not actually visible, as it is with pasta, bread, rice and so on).

As I say, completely OT. But I'd welcome your insight here.

Many thanks for the extremely valuable blog.

Chris said...

the abstract of the article is here

I've read the whole thing and while some of the science is beyond me I get the impression that the press release is sensationalizing this a bit. It doesn't really make much of carbs until a small comment in the discussion.

gunther gatherer said...

I'm going to say one last thing about Peter's diet and then I'll let it rest. Peter seems to spend long periods AWAY from eating too. This works with what Taubes and Eades say about using adipose fat. Stan also mentions this in his blog regarding snacking.

It stands to reason that if you're training your body to live on fat with such a high fat diet, you lose weight when you're more or less fasting between meals.

In other words, Peter's raising insulin only minimally when he eats, so body fat is not being put on. Then when not eating, his body keeps him at 63 to 65kg by burning excess adipose fat. I think that's the trick that allows him to eat so many calories, i.e. he's not eating CONTINUOUSLY, but intermittently and high fat. There is a difference, it seems!

ItsTheWooo said...

eric - if it helps to have second hand information, alcohol consistently gives me hypoglycemia (thus ravenous eating) after it wears off. I think it depends on your baseline blood sugar and fatty acid levels. If you're like me, and at any given time you have just a small - healthy amount of food in your blood stream, alcohol is only going to trigger ravenous hunger and rebound hyperinsulinemia afterward (most young people are like this, which is why people gain so much weight when they go to college and start drinking).

If you're the type that tends to high blood sugar/ fats in your blood (i.e. a diabetic) then alcohol might actually help -- in moderation of course. It's very individual.

I wish I could drink without the massive hypo, sigh. Probably for the best, I would probably be addicted otherwise.

gunther gatherer said...

Peter,

First off, I hit my goal weight of 65kg yesterday. Celebrated with a huge dish of Optimal Ice Cream and 85% chocolate sauce.

And then, (sheepish look)... I have one LAST nagging issue with regards to your daily calorie count. Making another rough calculation comprised of your daily pint or two of cream, 85% chocolate, 6 egg yolks and recipe examples, I'm also noticing that in addition to not counting fat, you are also going a bit over 50g of carbs too, no?

The only reason I notice this is because in emulating your diet, I put my own (similar) ingredients into Fitday, only to find that if I ate chocolate and cream the same day, I was already very close to the 50g carb limit. Combine this with your Optimal Ice Cream, 1000 calorie pie or any of your recipes which contain chips, parsnips, sweet potato or tomatos, and I'm over the limit by a long shot.

I so hate being tedious with this topic, but there is so much grey area. I had to eat 1600 kcal a day with meticulous measurement of my fat, pro and carbs for three weeks to make my ideal weight. You seem to casually eat up to 3500 kcal a day and don't count a thing. Will a "rough OD" routine like yours allow me to keep my new weight?

Please do one more Fitday calculation of one of your bigger eating days for us. You simply must be going over on carbs and even protein sometimes... Cheers, G

ItsTheWooo said...

I think it is important to remember every body is different. I know if I even *looked* at 3000 calories, with 50ish carbs, even if protein was restricted (<80g) I would certainly gain a little weight. I would gain a horrifying amount if it was comprised of a low fat high carb diet, and a slightly less horrifying amount if it was a high protein-high fat diet... and least horrifying of all would be low protein, low carb, high fat. But I would definitely gain something.

My blood sugars and blood fats are always low and borderline hypoglycemic. My body likes to store stuff. It would not allow the sugar and the fat to flow free like that, insulin would be released, I would store it in fat, liver, muscle, wherever.
Tis' just the way it be'. Some of us are likely to get fat, whereas others are more likely to get diabetic (contrary to myth I've noticed it's usually the moderately fat or thin who develop diabetes - super fatties like myself with a super human ability to clear out and store food maintain reasonably good glycemic control for far longer).

I think it is important to keep in mind your own unique metabolism and weights. High weight is a good indication of what your body is likely to do with an excess of nutrition of any kind. I've never met someone who was once truly obese, able to eat unlimited fat calories on low carb, and not gain weight. I've met a handful of people who claim this but they are invariably the type who never really had obesity to begin with (in which case, they are more like ordinary thin people, and ordinary thin people cannot gain weight naturally, which is why they are thin).

Mr Secret said...

Hello

im 22 year old athlete, and i really find your blog awesome. I have also read and follow Jan K. But there is one problem, as for me who is very active i met the wall on this "diet". Have you find any articles about what he recommends for young active athletes? ive read many many articles from him, and in one of them is says that if you are very active you should eat more quality protein and more fat. But when i run full sprint etc. my only source of fuel is glycogen and i get that from carb. What is your opinion?

Mr Secret said...

i also forgot to mention. My main goal is to loose weight(fat) so that my bodyfat % will be under 10% so around 6-8% will be perfect. How can i achieve this? im currently around 15%

Braesikalla said...

I copied this quote from the Australian Homo Optimus Forum:

Ratios for athletes:

"During intensive work-outs the amount of protein should equal even 1,6 g per kg of calculated weight.

For this particular person (weighing 74kg and 182 cm tall) the doctor recommended: on days of heavy work-out: 100-120 g and on days without work out 70-80g. In order to have enough energy one should eat on average 50g extra grams of fat for each hour of intensive workout, which gives up to 250g of fat during workout days and 180-200g on other days. Carbohydrates, given the fact that this person's job is in front of a computer & taking into account the workouts: even up to 120g (on quiet days: 80g may be enough). Make sure to eat good quality protein, especially collagen. "

Upping the amount of carbohydrate is the key - otherwise you'll lack energy, if you want to do anaerobic exercise. Personally (174cm, 65kg, 10,2% BF)I do short burst of high intensity workouts - no longer than 15 minutes - three times a week mixed with some endurance work. Since I increased my carbohydrate intake on workout days to 60 - 80g, I'm so full of energy that there is an "inner urge" to move. My only carb source are peeled potatoes - I don't eat any other vegetables or fruits. My diet is as basic as it can be: protein from eggs, meat and offal, fat from butter. That's it. Protein needs are still much lower than recommended above from the OD doctors. I rarely exceed 80g/D and I feel that this amount works absolutely fine for me.

Mr Secret said...

thank you very much. But as my main goal is to loose body fat i should probably not upper my fat inntake more? as he says in the book for obese people you can lower the fat inntake to 1:2 to protein. I know im not obese but you get the point :p nice to hear that you have low body fat. Have you consider going lower? how much calories do you eat on one day? or like grams of fat ? since you told me your protein and carb. Carb from regular potatoes, interesting many people say that potates arent good. they say sweet potatoes are ok but they dont taste good :)

Braesikalla said...

Fat intake is usually around 200 - 250 g/D for maintenance.
Last December I dropped my fat to 120g/D and my body fat went rapidly down to 6.5%. But that looked rather unhealthy and I was shivering a lot - bad insulation. Not recommended in winter times.
Peeled potatoes are high quality carbs - almost no fiber and allergy causing substances.
Take a look at Emma's blog:
http://blog.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/2008/08/17/the-humble-potato/

Mr Secret said...

That is just super news for me :D to know that its possible by just doing that. I have been on a mod/high carb diet the last days so my body isnt a fat burning machine atm. But im going to implement Jan K again. I was eating that way but my performance dropped and that because of my low carb inntake. I was never over 50g. So if i upper it to around 80g as you said i will be perfect. Have you experiences with fasting? its so populair now, and people getting great results. Im playing soccer at 10:00 in the morning and i know that eating at 8:00 is probably to late. So im considering working out fasted, any experience with that?

gunther gatherer said...

Peter, just wanted to acknowledge and thank you for your help in reaching my goal.

Had I not found your blog, I wouldn't have had the knowledge necessary to make it happen.

Thanks for giving us the information necessary to empower us to take charge of our health! Regards, G

Peter said...

Hi Mr Secret and Braesikalla,

You seem to be well sorted between you, better than me saying I don't do exercise.... BTW when I was 9% fat I was WAY too thin. Even at 11% fat I suspect that JK would consider me seriously underweight. Play careful!


Gunther,

Thanks for that. I'll try to answer more comments tomorrow. Need to sleep on the next post before putting it up.

Peter

Mr Secret said...

hehe will see when i get there :p 15% is way to high for me. awesome site btw :D i want to look like the hollywood stars u see :D Brad Pitt in fight club if that tells u something :D i will keep you posted on my progress. so exited i found some english people who follow the Optimal Diet :D

Braesikalla said...

I'm usually eating twice a day - around 7 AM and again at 4PM. No snacking in between. So you can say I'm following kind of an intermittent fasting regime. But that happened by accident, since I'm on OD for several months I'm just not getting that hungry anymore.
I have experience with fasted workouts. Arthur de Vany notes that this will create a favourable hormonal environment for muscle growth. I'm not sure about that. On the other hand Martin Berkhan from leangains.com says working out on an empty stomach is a waste of time. Today I don't care about being fasted before I exercise. Usually I just go by feel - when I get an energy rush from NEFAs or chylomicrons pouring into my system, I automatically start to move and I know it is time to hit the weights or go biking, sprinting etc...
Please keep Peter's words in mind - play careful!
I've been at a very low level of bodyfat and retrospectively I wouldn't recommend that to someone else - because in the long run, you'll get a starvation response. (Very low pulse rate, very low blood pressure, cold hands and feet all the time, lack of energy. Google "Euthyroid Sick Syndrome" and you'll know what I mean.) After increasing the amount of fat in my diet those symptoms vanished quickly. Now at 10.2% BF I consider myself still very lean (my abs are clearly visible) and I feel excellent with lots of energy.

wattlebird said...

mr secret,
I cannot speak directly of Brad Pitt, but please dont be fooled by many movie stars/celebrities who display an ultra-ripped muscular physique. Usually this condition is held for just a very short time during shooting.
Also, what you dont get told is that pharmaceutical assistance is regularly used.
I have no moral objection to this at all, but rather just make the point, that not all the story is often told about "getting in shape."
It is a very, very rare individual who can build a muscular physique and do so at very low (under 10%)levels of bodyfat. Very, very rare!

Mr Secret said...

thank you both for great response :D one thing i was wondering about, carb inntake when it comes to potatoes. Do you have any problem eating 80g carb from potatoes a day? since its only 14g/100g carb in potatoes. And about vitamin A and caroteen that i get from carrots, its ok to eat some carrots each day? since i want get caroteen from any other sources?

About the movie stars and the low bodyfat% i will keep you posted on how its going and see and feel for myself :D i will play carefully

Mr Secret said...

i was also wondering how you prepare the potatoes, cook them or like Jan K mash them bith butter on a frying pan?

Peter do you have some more lovely recepies with potatoes ? :D

Peter said...

Mr Secret,

Beta carotene is for vegans! Are you not eating your liver? Ok, I mean some poor animal's liver. The real vitamin A.

Carrots for the occasional high fat casserole are fine but never forget Maria Thommessen!

I have to admit to a penchant for long narrow rectangles of potato deep fried in beef dripping then sprinkled with salt. Mmmmm, dietary AGEs. I probably like them because they are so unhealthy!

Sometimes I'm so bad. Also mashed with cream and throw in an egg yolk too...

Peter

Mr Secret said...

hehe nah, liver isnt that normal to get around here and i dont think it will taste that good :) but as for caroteen i was mention it because its good for my skin and skin color. Will try that thing with the potatoes. thank you