Sunday, March 24, 2024

Foie Gras (7) What do you mean by inflammation?

This paper contains a very superficial and bullet point overview of the inflammatory cascade. It omits swathes of anti inflammatory pathways and many of the boxes on the chart could be massively expanded. The paper is interested in using phytotoxins (mis-termed phytonutrients) as anti inflammatory agents, so all I take from the paper is their doodle

Animal Models of Inflammation for Screening of Anti-inflammatory Drugs: Implications for the Discovery and Development of Phytopharmaceuticals

A legible version of the diagram is in the paper if anyone would like to actually read it.



































We can simplify the process slightly with the red arrow. In addition I've circled in blue the component that is being used as a marker of inflammation in the Vaughan paper:


































We can now consider the basic process a little more carefully. This massive review (no, I've not read it all) brings to prominence the central role of ROS in inflammation


and has this nice illustration featuring mitochondria as sources of ROS. Superoxide generation is never accidental. It is a tightly controlled and highly specific process to achieve certain ends. Mitochondria and NOXs are not making mistakes or having accidents:











BTW MPO is the myeloperoxidase we've seen recently in Vaughan's paper. HOCl is bleach, it's an inflammatory tool. We use it to kill germs.

So this lets us redraw this doodle of inflammation with a small modification:





































Right up at the top of the inflammation doodle is a small red circle labelled PLA2, phospholipase A2. Its job, in the event of tissue injury, signalled by ROS and derivatives, is to release arachidonic acid from lipid membranes which then allows the generation of a raft of inflammatory mediators using cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase enzymes.

Corticosetroids are potent suppressors of PLA2. They also releases both glucose and FFAs from the liver and adipocytes in to the blood stream. Physiological cortisol does this to deal with the sort of situation where you and a bunch of your mates are about to go and drive an angry mammoth into a bog, to kill it and butcher it. But high FFAs and high glucose together generate metabolic ROS, which are pro inflammatory.

You want raw energy, not to be crippled by an acute inflammatory reaction. So cortisol also down regulates the inflammatory cascade which *should* have been triggered, via ROS from the ETC, while flooding mitochondria with large amounts of substrate in anticipation of incipient need.

So cortisol floods your metabolism with calories, simultaneously controlling inflammation, and your mitochondria convert those calories in to the ability to successfully kill a mammoth, ie obtain food for a month for you and your tribe. Those calories get used successfully. Nothing is overloaded, nothing is damaged. Glucose and FFAs get used up during the hard work involved, facilitated by AMP-kinase rather than insulin. There is no generation of bulk inflammation, and what minor ROS mediated lipid peroxidation does occur has the routine inflammatory response suppressed. 

Evolution sets the levels correctly. It may be blind but it recognises functionality when it sees it.

Now imagine you're an Homo modernus visiting your bank manager in the 1960s to get a mortgage with a borderline adequate income and a just passable deposit, for the house of your dreams. The manager is a local petty Hitler and, even if he intends to grant the mortgage, he's going to really make you suffer, mentally, for it. Because he can.

You're stressed pre interview. So cortisol floods your system. Glucose and FFAs are made plentiful to allow you to fight at your hardest during a necessary mammoth kill. But there are consequences to killing the bank manager and most people, understandably, decide not to do so. Much as they might wish to. Especially if he refuses to grant you the debt you can barely afford. For your safety. There is no energy usage, no AMPK activation, just a serious availability of calories.

If the levels are high enough they will flood your mitochondria and provide substrate well in excess of what is needed for current ATP demand. If ATP synthase refuses to turn because ATP is high and ADP is low, while NADH and FADH2 keep supplying electrons to the ETC at the CoQ couple, delta psi will rise above that safe figure in the region of 170mV and ROS will be produced in large amounts from multiple sites, giving both insulin resistance and tissue damage.

You can use pharmaceuticals to inhibit phospholipase A2 as much as you like to avoid any response to this damage, classically using prednisolone or dexamethasone, but there is still the flood of calories generating ROS at tissue damaging levels. You might feel okay because the whole inflammatory cascade is suppressed, but cells are still dying from high ROS levels. If these happen to be endothelial cells lining your coronary arteries you are in trouble. Some will be.

So I would posit that the increased risk of CVD under corticosteroids could be (in part, there are many other issues) an effect of acute ROS injury. Under corticosteroids the inflammatory response is suppressed but the excess calories are still generating excess ROS. The damage is still done.

Of course the same applies to metabolic syndrome.

I define metabolic syndrome as the inability to shut down FFA availability in the presence of insulin and elevated glucose. FFAs are high from basal lipolysis at the same time as glucose from the diet causes hyperglycaemia. If substrate supply is high enough ROS will be generated and damage will be done. This time there will be an actual inflammatory response, no corticosteroid involved, and people can make statements like "obese people are chronically inflamed". They are producing mitochondria mediated ROS to physiologically resist insulin. If they are forced to continue to accept calories despite resisting insulin, the ROS become simply damaging. Inflammation follows. 

If you do not link this "inflammation" back to ROS then you would, logically, treat it with dexamethasone. Which would be a booboo, as we say in the UK. You would suppress inflammation while supplying even more ETC input, so worsening ROS mediated damage. Those poor coronary artery endothelial cells. In the absence of slaughtering a mammoth of course.



It's also worth thinking about the role of 4-HNE. Just a skim of the abstract of this book chapter is worth a moment:


4-HNE is, in itself, a product of ROS damage. It is also a generator of ROS per se. Much of the inflammatory cascade is self amplifying (which is why we have systems to turn inflammation off as well as on). Taking exogenous 4-HNE has profound effects on ROS mediated signalling in the insulin cascade, at low dose by injection to enhance, at high dose (with other lipid peroxides) orally to inhibit. It matters in the inflammatory cascade as much as in the insulin cascade.

My interest, getting back to Vaughan's obese mice without hepatic inflammation, is rooted in the factors which generate 4-HNE in situ around the ETC and which factors stop this. I'm talking about ROS generation.

Back to those mice and their non-inflamed hepatocytes and adipocytes.

Peter 

12 comments:

mct4health said...

Thank you, Peter, nicely said. I would only add my favorite HIF1A to switch on by excessive ROS, if fats cannot be created as rescue metabolism. Which by the way still switch to make fat. Fat synthesis is seemingly the most effectively rescue pathway to consume mitochondrial NADH and cytosolic NADPH instead of using oxygen.

The chronic inflammation I see as inability to switch from anaerobic fermentation to OXPHOS.
"Redox regulation in metabolic programming and inflammation"
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.redox.2017.01.023

There are also interesting environmental aspects, like missing clean ground ozone, which nobody see.

https://mct4health.blogspot.com/2022/11/ozone-o3-has-antioxidant-effects-are-we.html

https://mct4health.blogspot.com/2023/09/ozone-and-nitric-oxide-how-do-they.html
Jaromir

Tucker Goodrich said...

Nice post.

Passthecream said...

Strong coffee please, white with four sugars but don't stir it, I don't like it sweet. 1pm to 7pm after the second cup is just when you are itching to practise BMM ( bank manager mutilation), or make some trades on a bear market.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2257922/#:~:text=Caffeine%20increases%20cortisol%20secretion%20in,of%20caffeine%20in%20the%20diet.

karl said...

@mct4health
First a side point.. O3 is probably only had a minor effect to combat TB - The evidence that it was Vit-D that matters is there. Not to detract from your main points..

What is clear is that MOST of the anti-ox narrative is just wrong. Most of these are polyphenols that don't get absorbed - might help keep metals from getting absorbed but they mostly remain in the digestive tract. True antiox that do get absorbed are associated with bad health effects.

A much better way to think about this is that the ROS from MT is a metabolic mode switch. Flipping between the two modes turns on and off a long list of events. Taking something that messes with this system does not seem like a wise idea - just eat human foods instead of packaged foods.

One of the missing considerations are possible hormesis effects. I think it is clear by now that low levels of radiation (I think it was a Dr. Cohen in Iowa that first observed this) actually reduce cancer rates. If you consider cancer to be first a MT disease, there are several possible narratives of how this works by effecting ion levels. So it is possible that O3 has a similar effect?

Part of what I think you are reacting to is from the false narrative that "ROS is always bad" - "The less the better". Interfere with this ancient signal at your own peril. Same narrative with inflammation - appropriate inflammation is a really good thing - it is healing. Turn off inflammation and your next cut could kill you.

This tendency to put something into terms of bad-vs-good does not help us.

So I don't find it surprising that O3 helps with wound healing

Some of this reminds me of the dive I did trying to understand the politicized ozone layer jazz - ignoring earlier data when the 'ozone hole' was actually larger. Turns out that if there is less ozone - more UV gets through and produces - wait for it - more ozone. I never could reconcile all the contrary bits in this story - could be it was mostly about expiring patents.

@Oassthecream
Biology is full of tolerance effects - I think much of this helps us survive single point mutations. The web of nested and redundant feedback loops makes these mutations a detriment - but not fatal. I suspect that we also develop tolerance to chronically elevated cortisol.

What is not in the paper is the association between elevated BP and CVD - which is confounded with sodium retention due to chronically elevated insulin in most of today's population. It could be the blocking of autophagy by insulin is the bigger problem for CVD.

Every other paper on coffee seems to contradict the last one - my take is if coffee was seriously harmful, we would know about it by now. Most likely coffee produces some harms and some benefits. Anyway, I have mine dark roasted with heavy cream - delicious. (so I'm probably biased).

Passthecream said...

I roast my own beans and drink it black. Just that coffee plus sugar = cortisol plus ros = time to go hunting and gathering.
:)

mct4health said...

@karl
About clean ground ozone, I think the data is missing. I didn't find any study, when would be ozone level of 0.1 mg O3 restored. Our living rooms definitely have only small percentage of it, near zero.We just don't know if this is more or less powerful then D3.

See on-line data from Chopok mountain, really clean environment. Every day min 70 ug, even in winter.
https://www.chmi.cz/files/portal/docs/uoco/web_generator/aqindex_slide1/mp_8CHOA_CZ.html

Did you read the inflammation paper. I returned to if after few years and I understand it much more now. It's very interesting.

Passthecream said...

@Karl "Biology is full of tolerance effects - I think much of this helps us survive single point mutations. The web of nested and redundant feedback loops makes these mutations a detriment - but not fatal."

You really should look into some of Michael Levin's work with planarian flatworms and the concept he calls cellular competency or cellular intelligence. In the case of these creatures dna hardly seems to matter at all. He has yet to find a level of mutagen to raise them in which makes any difference to their biology even though it turns their dna to junk. It was pretty junky before he tried. This goes way beyond balancing out snm. It is less like this in humans but not entirely less --- think about the huge range of junk dna found in various cancer cells yet they are still vital, surviving cell types capable of forming colonies. They have high cellular competency. In the case of planarians the whole creature has evolved to have this level of cellular competency.

Passthecream said...

Mct4h "Our living rooms definitely have only small percentage of it" (ozone"

The old brush motor powered blenders and vacuum cleaners helped keep domestic ozone levels up. We had one blender, a 'vitamiser' where you could watch the spark fireworks through cooling vents and smell that acrid tang of O3. Perhaps this is why I was more healthy growing up, the ozone doing more good than the smoothies?
;)

karl said...

@Passthecream

I have a problem with MOST of the inflammation papers - Every paper uses the term to mean what ever THEY think it means - usually with out clearly defining what THEY mean by the term. (It means a tissue repair or infection fighting response to me - and probably we should split the term inflammation between repair and immune function - ie injury-inflammation and immunological-inflammation).

Is it the ion level?
Anti-ox levels?
Some cytokine?
the appearance of macrophages?

When I see the term used loosely - it looks like hand-waving to me. One particular Interleukin rising does not mean there is an inflammatory response.

When you have a staph infection - is inflammation a good or bad thing?

==> I don't think the proton-switch is the same as inflammation. <== There may be some overlap. I think this switch is likely a VERY ancient biological signal. Shut it down with antioxidants at your own peril.

So on a normal diet that isn't full of untested food additives, or heavy metal toxins most of this just isn't an issue. (Part of the problem is the blood levels of cytokines etc have confounded 'normal' with 'average.)

If you look at a normal inflammatory response to injury or infection - it is not a simple thing - and it is hubris to think we understand much of any of it. So many things happen at once - all with their own maze of feedback loops that anyone that thinks they 'know' will end up with egg on their face - yet people double down - build ungrounded narratives on top of other ungrounded narratives.

,.,.
Re ozone - I remember the warnings that came out about ozone from electrostatic air cleaners - and ozone generators. Could very well be that optimal is not zero. ( even ionizing radiation appears to have a hormesis effect at low levels.) Quite sure we don't know the optimal levels? There are health benefits to time spent out-doors - is ozone involved?

,.,.
Back to the proton-switch and tolerance - tolerance helps maintain a set-point - say body weight. A different way to think of this is we have an effect that changes this set point. I think it has to do with insulin-levels combined with sensitivity to insulin. Without knowing perfectly the mechanism - I can say that something gets damaged - apparently permanently.

I (and a large number of fellow travelers), used to be able to eat carbs and maintain body weight. Now, I have to strictly limit carbs - apparently regardless of other dietary factors - so my working theory is some permanent damage happened and we now have T2D. Probably this damage is cumulative - is it from the carbs? from seed oils? The combination? From food additives? From other environmental effects? Contents of vaccines? Is the damage in the MT? Is it some endocrine organ?

What I am sure of is we don't really know - but I sure would like to know.

With T1D we know there is a lack of insulin - damage to the pancreas (auto immune) - yet with T2D - despite it being the dominant distal cause of death - We don't know - and there is a lack of basic research - or any roadmap directing the research - most of the money goes to Pharma - hopeful to treat the symptoms with a patented drug - not so interested in the cause (if the cause(s) were identified, it would reduce drug sales.)..

altavista said...

Deep breaths when going to see the bank manager

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1535610824000370?via=ihub

cavenewt said...

@altavista—thanks for that reminder to avoid glucocorticoids.

Gyan said...

Malcolm Kendrick in the first half of book Cholesterol Con ably refutes the cholesterol hypothesis. But the second part of weird-- all heart disease is ascribed to stress loading the adrenal axis which than causes over-secretion of cortisol. And the examples to support the hypothesis
1) Peaceful evacuation of Finns from the territory ceded to Soviet Union post-WW2.
2) Peaceful resettlement of Glasgow slum dwellers to newly built housing outside the city
3) Peaceful migration of South Asians worldwide

These three cases were so traumatic that these three groups led the world for heart diseases (at different times).

Isn't it cherrypicking on the most massive scale --dwarfing whatever Keys is supposed to have done!

What about non-peaceful evacuation of Germans post WW2? Of South Asians after 1947?
Of Holocaust survivors?