Thursday, July 10, 2008

AGE, RAGE and ALE; oxLDL

This is the abstract from a discussion paper, it's not in pubmed for some reason but I have the pdf lying around my hard drive. It's just an opinion piece but quite well referenced.


Oxidized Low-Density Lipoproteins and Atherosclerosis
S. Ylä-Herttuala1,2, T. Pakkanen1, P. Leppänen1, T. Häkkinen1

Basic research has provided strong evidence that LDL oxidation plays an important role in atherogenesis. Several mechanisms have been identified which can lead to LDL oxidation in vivo. Clinical and epidemiological studies have provided circumstancial evidence that oxidized LDL may be involved in the progression of atherosclerotic vascular disease. Better understanding of mechanisms that lead to LDL oxidation or protect LDL against oxidative damages shouldhelp the development of new strategies for the prevention of cardiovascular diseases. J Clin Basic Cardiol 2000; 3: 87–8.

Just look at this table of comparison between LDL lipoproteins and oxLDL lipoproteins.

If you are measuring the size and numbers of your LDL particles, you might also want to look at their oxidation state too. Perhaps it matters more? Are the small dense LDL particles so associated with atherosclerosis also the most AGEd and ALEd?

Here's the table, click to enlarge



If you had the choice between lots of minimally oxidised LDL and a small amount of highly oxidised LDL which would you choose? Low fat diet anyone, or maybe just more sugar on your soya oil fried donut? Mmmmmmm, yumeeee.

Peter

22 comments:

Bruce K said...

Peter, I have a suggestion. Can you upload files like that PDF that you think are relevant? There is a free service you can use to upload large files and let people download them. It's called zShare. That way, folks wouldn't have to ask you send files by email. We will be able to follow your posts better. Thanks.

http://www.zshare.net/

IWFC0dN7oN.NyycUvuSp2UfBTUwR_Fo- said...

Attention anyone who does running/cardio:

I am now in week 2 or 3. Often times I sporadically get a weird feeling in one of my ears while jogging. It sounds/feels like when it gets clogged with water from the pool and you can hear your breathing louder as though it's inside your head.

Somewhat similar as well to ear pressure-related things you get from heights.

Anyone have ideas?

Thanks and cheers!

Bloggeier said...

http://www.kup.at/kup/pdf/97.pdf

_MlyIDJmmsiDefUAi5G2P6IUUcC7dAQ- said...

Although this is not related to the post, I wanted to ask you a quetion so I hope you don't mind me asking it in here.

I have always wondered about the science behind Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's recommendation of eating enough carbs to stay out of ketosis, that is, about 30-50 at least. Ketosis has been shown by several studies to have a positive impact on the human body and since dietary carbs are proven to do such evil deed to our body, why does he still recommend eating those amount? Those amount of carbs would probably not allow the brain to get adapted to utilize ketones but rely only on glucose.

I understand that although glucose made from gluconeogenesis can fuel some glucose needed by the parts of the body that can utilize only body, however, they are taxing process and that maybe Dr. Kwasniewski though it's just more efficient to give the body what it needs in ready-made carb form than in hard-made glucose from protein gluconeogenesis. What's your opinion on this?

I read about a theory that in order for the body to completely metabolise fatty acids, some dietary carbs are needed. Have you heard about this theory or have access to any studies that could relate to it?

Thanks in advance. I really enjoy reading your blog and have learned a lot.

Bruce K said...

JK recommends low carbs so that the body does not have to waste fats or proteins to make glucose. They will be used for healing and maintenance instead. I think it's true that you can't gain fat by overeating fat if you avoid carbs. The more carbs and protein you eat, the easier to gain weight. Aajonus Vonderplanitz has a similar theory. He recommends a raw diet high in meat, eggs, and animal fats. He suggests adding raw butter and unheated honey to most meals so the protein is not used as fuel. JK seems to do the same thing, but his diet is mostly cooked.

Gyan said...

I know I am being off-topic, but the issue is important and pressing.
Today there is a report of a new study that says Vitamin A could help cancer cells by facilitating angiogenesis through a novel pathway.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715204719.htm

The vitamin A actually desribed in the report is either beta-carotene or a synthetic analogue but still it may be generlizable to all vitamin A's.
I wonder if you could evaluate it since I have been using high-dose vitamin A exactly for the breast cancer.

JohnN said...

Chris Masterjohn made a convincing case for the synergistic effects of using A and D together and not in isolation.
I also have a problem with the reductionistic approach of Western medicine - studying things in isolation. Moreover, even if the tumor cells are building blood vessels, it is to get at the glucose supply - hopefully not in abundance if you eat "correctly".

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamina-osteo.html

Bruce K said...

Even if you eat low-carb, you still have plenty of sugar for the cancer to eat. Only starvation, or perhaps extreme ketosis would lower glucose levels enough to starve cancer. Raw diets are also widely promoted as a cure for cancer, including raw meat and animal foods.

Chainey said...

Hi, I'm back!

Glad to see you're still knocking out the posts.

I'll get reading and work my way through the back catalogue.

Gyan said...

Is it known how much Vitamin A is required with 8000 iu of D3?.
I read somewhere that 10000 iu of D3 per day is Upper Safe Limit. Does that mean that 10000 iu of D3 may be consumed without worrying about Vitamin A (esp in somebody severely D3 deficient but not much A deficient)

Misty said...

Peter,
Is going on a zero carb (considering ingestion of organs which would mean some carbs) (high fat, moderate protein) diet bad for the thyroid and adrenals on the long term?...for some reason it agrees more with me than incorporating 50 gr of carb, like JK suggests.
I would appreciate your help, since after hours of reading different studies I have not gotten a straight conclusion on if it really slows down the thyroid or not, and I am also concern about the cortisol levels becoming high and having a bad effect on long term health.
In advance thanks
Hela

Swollen said...

I found some papers on AGE, RAGE and ALE here at http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17854008
Could someone give an opinion on the quality of papers listed on this site?
There is also a paper -"Dietary ALEs are a risk to human health - NOT" http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17854007
Thanks Peter!

Peter said...

Hi Swollen,

Briefest of looks, they look worth reading to me...

Peter

Peter said...

Hi Hela,

I've never really looked in to this in detail. The whole idea of concept from JK was so logical that I never really considered zero carb, so it's not been something I've ever really looked in to. So there is nothing lying around on my hard drive to help out. I know Stan tried this and was not happy with it and when Windmill went for extreme ketosis is mangled her blood glucose.... But adrenal/thyroid issues shouldn't be an issue with the OD approach...

Sorry that's not much help!

Peter

Peter said...

Hi Gyan,

I don't really go in to single nutrients as supplements so I'm not clued up here, but I would say that test tubes and real life are only related in terms of how the findings fit in to the logic of what you are trying to achieve. In cancer my assumption is that apoptosis of the cancer cells is the desired end point and many chemotherapy agents do this by accident rather than design. Others will know more about vitamin A than I do on this front. From the article I gather vitamin A may revert cancer cells to normal tissue if you get the dose just right, rather than inducing apoptosis...

But the problems of interpretation are best illustrated by statins, which look to be helpful on several fronts against cancer in test tubes but are neutral or carcinogenic in clinical use.

I don't think you can decide if vitamin A at supplement dose levels will act to differentiate cancer cells to normal cells or assemble odd bits of blood vessel which might act as a supply pipe to a cancer. Too many unknowns.

Peter

Bruce K said...

"I know Stan tried this [zero-carb] and was not happy with it and when Windmill went for extreme ketosis is mangled her blood glucose."

I wonder what fats they were using. Most people won't be happy with the low-carb, let alone no-carb, diets. And there is this pervasive myth in the low-carb world that all animal fats are equally good. They're not. Red meat and dairy are the best and unsaturated fats are the worst. If you overcook your food, that could also cause a problem, like craving for sugar. I've found reports that cooked meat causes sugar cravings, but not raw meat, e.g. Emma Davies.

http://blog.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/2006/09/19/raw-meat/

Peter said...

Stan would have been mostly saturates. He went via JK and then overboard on carb reduction. No soya oil.

Windmill, I never asked, but still probably still mostly saturates.

As you know JK is VERY pro cooking. Marinading pre cooking too.

He has no specific paleo slant from my reading.

Peter

Bruce K said...

Different fats are routinely called "saturated fat." Many call chicken a saturated fat (23% PUFAs). Frank pointed out that governemnt health organizations often call doughnuts and french fries "saturated fat." I call beef and butter saturated, and lamb is less saturated, and pork is even less saturated. Also, there's the issue of cooking...

Unless JK has specifically examined cooked meats and raw meats, I think it's just his own bias. I just read a quote on Australia's Optimal Diet website that is relevant.

Hippocrates said:
"A physician will never dispute any new method of treatment without first trying it."

http://www.cybernaut.com.au/optimal_nutrition/

So the question is whether JK tried cooked meats and raw meats, side by side, to see which one was digested fastest with the least toxicity and the most healing benefit. Of course most people won't eat raw meat, due to conditioning, fear, etc. I heard from two people who tried to switch their cats to raw meat and the cats ate a little and then refused. This is not surprising, they are victims of conditioning and habit just like humans are. WE also have have "peer pressure" - family, friends, and so forth.

Most people will continue to eat as they were trained to eat, when they might be healthier if they kept an open mind and pushed themselves. It isn't like raw meat tastes horrible or anything. In fact, it has a very fresh, clean, and satistying taste. But it's different (unfamiliar) and requires an adjustment.

Peter said...

On the contrary Bruce, have the raw meat diet proponents done the studies to show the superiority of raw diets? JK could go head to head with raw meat diets, then the macrobiotic diets, then low fat vegan, then North Indian animal fats based diets then......

When presented with a rare steak 1" thick on which the outer millimeter (pardon the mix of units) had been briefly seared, I ate and enjoyed it. On the OD cooked diet I feel good. I'm not looking for immortality. Being healthy while I live is fine.

Regarding zero carb diets, anyone can try this and if (when?) they feel rubbish, it can just be put down to the wrong fats. Maybe. Maybe not. Not a huge lot of data out there for that one.

Peter

marla said...

"Regarding zero carb diets, anyone can try this and if (when?) they feel rubbish, it can just be put down to the wrong fats. Maybe. Maybe not."

Been there, felt rubbish (high anxiety on waking), saw your comment about ketosis and cortisol. Started throwing in some chopped mushrooms and bingo. No more anxiety.

thanks. i've read all the archives and profited. Looking forward to more.

Marla

GK said...

I've been rereading the AGE posts trying to understand the biochemistry a little more.

I like your last reference to the donut. If I understand the posts correctly, the worst thing we can ingest is a load of PUFA along with a whack of sugar to oxidize it. If so, I think we can nominate the donut as a symbol of everything that's wrong with modern processed food: white flour, sugar, and vegetable oil.

On the other hand, I have just eaten a handful of pecans and Brazils with my banana... uh-oh?

Peter said...

Hi GK,

It's the strangest thing, but bananas have a very long and respectable association with human expansion in the tropics. You probably know that bananas are clones, there are only a few edible individuals in the world. These track human movement after we left Africa. Very paleo but high in sugar...... My son loves them.

BTW there are at least 4 more posts in this series but there is never the time to do them justice.

Eventually!

Peter