Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Playing with salt and water

While we're talking about the risks of low salt and high water intakes, this hit the news today: You want to try a "detox" diet?

Don't!

It's arguable whether a detox diet is more or less likely to precipitate a hyponatraemic crisis than either Ecstasy or psychogenic polydipsia (a psychosis). Never forget the massive press misinformation about Leah Betts. This is what really happened to her:

"Hyponatraemia is an uncommon complication of MDMA ingestion. Only a few cases have been reported. The death of Leah Betts achieved wide publicity in the popular press, and it became clear that fatal water intoxication can be precipitated by excessive water drinking in ecstasy users. Fifteen cases were identified between August 1994 and December 1995 by the National Poisons Information Service (London), with serum Na+ concentrations of <130 mmol litre–1. The clinical pattern was remarkably uniform, with initial vomiting and disturbed behaviour, followed by drowsiness and agitation and, in seven cases, epileptiform convulsions. Drowsiness, a mute state and disorientation were observed for up to 3 days (Hartung TK, Schofield E, Short AI, Parr MJA, Henry JA, unpublished)"

Detox time or too much water after taking E at a party? Neither is beneficial and both can be fatal. Play safely!

Peter

44 comments:

Debs said...

Thanks for posting that. I've always thought so-called detox diets were a terrible idea. Fast for a day, sure, but days with large quantities of water and no food or salt? Seems doubly bad.

Debs
Food Is Love

ItsTheWooo said...

This is one of those times where I'm not sure who to be more disappointed with - the patient or the "professional". Certainly the nutritionist is liable for advising her client to INCREASE water consumption when she was showing signs of electrolyte imbalance. However the client really showed no common sense at all. At the least, she should have called her doctor or asked some sort of medically knowledgeable person if what she was experiencing was alright.


Regarding ecstasy use... one interesting thing I learned is that serotonin actually encourages ADH release, and this causes hyponatremia and contributes to the polydipsia ecstasy users experience. I learned this tidbit during my folly with excessive st johns wort usage (or during idiosyncratic bouts of extreme hypomania)... after a massive manic high, later on I would feel extremely disoriented, sluggish, and VERY thirsty.
My symptoms seemed to look a lot like what I learned about SIADH... So I researched antidepressants and SIADH, and came across a lot of articles about how SSRI drugs cause SIADH. Interesting. More research lead me to discover this is mediated through serotonin, so any substance, drug, or condition that can raise serotonin can also cause SIADH.
I found more articles about how a lot of ecstasy users die of water intoxication (ecstasy works via serotonin). It is assumed ecstasy users are thirsty because of dancing all night and losing salts and this is the cause of the electrolyte imbalance, but the ecstasy-induced serotonin increase is truly the major reason these club goers are vulnerable to it... the dancing just makes it worse by exacerbating the sodium deficit, but it does NOT cause dilutional hyponatremia ... ecstasy/serotonin does it to them.

Bruce K said...

Well, you could technically add sea salt to water and still be fasting. I'm very wary of the low-carb diets telling you to drink lots of water. Someone who successfully switched a cat to eating raw meat observed the cat would drink hardly any water. I wonder if we need to drink water on a high-fat diet, esp if meat is not over-cooked or drained.

Detox diets are a fraud IMO. One of the popular ones is Master Cleanse. People are told to drink raw lemon, or lime juice, Grade B maple syrup, and hot cayenne pepper. This unwise plan is not even a fast, since it's full of carbs from the maple syrup. It's no more a fast than relying on raw vegetable and fruit juices is a fast. It maybe beneficial if you're eating even worse normally.

Peter said...

Hi ItsTheWoo,

I'd realised that E disables ADH production, so markedly increases the risk of water poisoning, but I'd missed that it drove thirst, a double whammy.

As well as I can remember,Leah Betts took her Ecstasy tablet in her bedroom with friends without dancing. I'd assumed she drank lots of water because "that's what you do to when you take E". It seems simple to see that feeling rough might prompt more water ingestion... The thirst drive is another plausible explanation.

My main contact with hyponatraemia is overzealous diuretic use by careless clinicians. Once had a dog with a plasma Na of 110mmol/l and it not only survived but we got it's heart failure stabilised too, obviously on much reduced diuresis.

Peter

Frank said...

That would be my cat; since I put him on raw he doesn't appear to need any supplemental water at all. Nor is he dehydrated - I know this because I keep him in at night so he has to use the litter tray and I can assure you that his urine output is voluminous.
I've always been a bit sceptical of detox diets or protocols. The liver is the primary detoxification organ and it runs 24/7. What you eat is only pertinent if it involves the CYP450 pathway (e.g. isothiocyanate from cruciferous veg). The gut - primarily connected with nutrition and immunity seems largely irrelevant to "detoxification". I've read various comments (not here) from people obsessed with their poo - colour, consistency, shape, odour and frequency (3 times a day is apparently desirable) and wonder a little about their psychology.

Bruce K said...

Do humans need to drink water? I've experimented with no drinking water and never got dehydrated. Maybe you would need it if you were eating an abundance of dried/processed foods, but not if you were eating fresh or minimally processed foods. The body will adapt to a low water intake by conserving water. And apparently we can get plenty of water from raw or lightly cooked meat. I have read of metabolic water, too. It seems that fats produce more than their weight in metabolic water. This is derived from studies with dogs, but I think humans would be similar. Starch and protein give significantly less h2o than fats, so they probably have an overall dehydrating effect.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O39-metabolicwater.html

Bruce K said...

Frank, how much meat do you feet to your cat, relative to its weight? I think it's very interesting that no water is needed on a raw meat diet. Meat seems to be about 50-60% water and the fat also converts to water, 100g of fat makes 107g of water. It must also be true that the body has less water losses on such a diet as you said the cat had lots of urine. Does anyone have any ideas how this works? It's fascinating.

gallier2 said...

@Bruce K

don't derive from the metabolic water the need of water for the organism. It is true that more water is produced by metabolising fat than carbs, but more oxygen is necessary for that, so the water loss from breathing is higher.
Here a paper who discusses this point in dromedaries (sorry it's in french, there's an summary in English)
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/a02/CI000434.pdf
It points out that they have developed a lot of measures to reduce water loss, but the metabolic water derived from the fat metabolism is lost through the lungs.
Citation from the summary:
Body lipid oxidation produces energy but no water gain, because it implies
a simultaneous loss of respiratory water.

Bruce K said...

There is also about 50-65% water in meat (before it is cooked), so that might be enough based on results in Frank's cat and others. I have also seen reports from humans eating raw butter, eggs, and meat that they do not need much (if any) water. It is possible that the metabolic water's totally lost in respiration, but it might still give a temporary relief of thirst. Maybe you can get enough water from raw/rare meat.

Frank said...

For a total 2.5kg batch the values are 300g protein, 236g fat, 8g carbohydrate (based on USDA food composition database). I am unable to work out what the bones weigh, but Anne at catnutrition.org has posted values (one of her readers kindly had an analysis done for her recipe - which I have tweaked a bit) and it is 75% moisture.
He’s quite a glutton some days, but he is very active and very lithe. I suspect the 20-hours sleep per day only applies to cats eating crappy cat food. The 2.5 kg batch lasts only 10 days so that works out 187g water per day – I’m fairly sure cats eating dry kibble don’t drink anywhere near that much water per day.
Would nose-breathing cats lose as much water from their lungs as mouth-breathing animals? According to Dr Nicholas Dodman http://www.petplace.com/cats/water/page1.aspx
insensible loss in kittens is the same as urinary excretion (10-15 ml/lb per 24h for each), which would mean 200-300mls for my boy. I’m not sure that can be right for an animal designed to survive in arid areas – without a reference I have to wonder if he based that on newborn humans because those values appear to be very similar. I also see protein catabolism produces water – so who knows? And holy baloney – I just realised my 10 lb cat is getting more protein per day than my 55kg self. Every now and then I suspect I’d be better off eating his food!

emil henry said...

I'm starting fish oil supplements again. It seems that Norwegian dairy cows are mostly fed on silage/hay/pasture (with a small amount of "powerfeed," probably grain-based), while the slaughter cows are fed on infinitely cheap soy. Not too far from the United Kingdom standard, I believe.

My old bottle (not expired yet) has, per 5 ml: 10 uG vitamin D, 250 uG vitamin A, 10 mg vitamin E (additive of some kind), 1.2 g Omega-3 (0.6 g DHA, 0.4 g EPA). Is it safe to consume 5 g daily, or should I look for a pure fish oil (with no added vitamin E)? If so, any particular brand recommendations?

Bruce K said...

Frank, your figures seem a bit off. 2.5 kg / 10 days = 250 grams (0.55 pounds) per day. That seems like a lot to feed a cat.

"Every now and then I suspect I’d be better off eating his food!"

You keep bring this up. Maybe there would be some benefit to you eating some raw meat like Emma Davies. She eats like 4 oz (113g) a day.

gunther gatherer said...

I have a question for anyone seriously pursuing Peter's revised JK diet: Is anyone who was formally losing hair or suffering "male pattern baldness", as the hair replacement industry likes to term it, noticing a stoppage of hair loss or any renewed hair growth?

This has been my experience after a month of rigourous fitday monitoring and adherence to the diet. I haven't grown the bald spot back, but the hair's not falling out anymore and the rate of growth in the "male pattern baldness" areas is now the same as the side and back areas again. The last time I had that was ten years ago.

My hunch is that baldness and "hyperandrogeny", or overproduction of certain sex hormones, is a disease of civilisation and likewise a symptom of immune system malfunction and/or chronic inflation.

Does anyone have any info on this? Or even a theory that I could research?

You just don't see bald hunter gatherers. There has to be a reason for this. Could balding not be the "genetically determined trait" we are taught by the medical industry to see it as, and actually it is simply the body's response to our environment which signals ill health to the opposite sex so they choose a different mate?

Let's see: The FDA is a fraud, the AHA is sham, the Food Pyramid, the lipid hypothesis, statins, and the entire official line on health all are just publicity for the special interest groups that support them, why wouldn't the hair industry be just as misleading?

Anyone feeling like I do?

Thanks,
G

gunther gatherer said...

Note: the above 3rd paragraph should read "...and/or chronic inflammation..."

Sven said...

@gunter: (Unfortunately) I have not noticed any (hair) benefits. Definitely no renewed hair growth. I would even say hair loss has not stopped.

Peter said...

Hi Emil,

The Vit D and A levels look like RDA values (homeopathy) so the CLO will probably contain D3 and synthetic retinoic acid. I take my D3 as D3 caps, at much higher dosages and get my vit A from lamb's liver. I too tried dropping the fish oil as a personal experiment and found my fingers were beginning to stiffen up. Took a week to free them off on 5g/d fish oil. So, for me personally, omega 3 PUFA are helpful. Hee hee, guess this means I'm eating the wrong fats! I'm on 4g/d fish oil but will adjust downward and just see how I get on. I'm guessing 5g/d is fine unless you are Ray Peat.

Peter

Peter said...

Gunther,

I have mild temporal loss which appears stable since ON. Anyone making a marked change in diet will often have a period of hair loss for about 6m, especially if the change is hypocaloric. This happened to my wife in the early days and was commonly reported on many LC fora in the heyday of the Atkins diet. Long term I'd expect cessation of loss but regrowth is unlikely.

Peter

gunther gatherer said...

Peter,

"Long term I'd expect cessation of loss but regrowth is unlikely."

I find it hard to believe that one can change the body's entire fat-to-muscle ratios and BMI, repair countless biochemical processes, affect proper gene on-and-off switching, and get rid of diabetes and other serious ailments with diet, but can't grow hair back. Aren't they part of the same thing?

Maybe it has to do with the type of baldness. You say yours is temporal, which is not severe and doesn't markedly affect appearance. Also, you see hunter gatherers with this pattern often.

Mine is/was general, diffuse hair loss on top, along with an obvious bald spot in the back, your standard "male pattern" baldness. It just doesn't add up. There is absolutely none of this anywhere I can look in HGs eating their native diet, and if you look at it in animals, for instance, it's ALWAYS a sign of ill health, isn't it?

I'm no vet, but I'll wager hair loss is an evolutionary signal for ill metabolic health in males of any mammalian species. Nature doesn't do things for nothing!

As for regrowth, I'll keep you posted. At least it stopped falling out...

gunther gatherer said...

As regards to the above, I'm not referring to seasonal molting or shedding in animals, just diffuse and "unhealthy-looking" hair loss and bald patches...

emil henry said...

Thanks, Peter.

By the way, my digestion started clearing up as soon as I cut out my major fat source, olive oil, and replaced it with animal fats, like cultured butter. It makes sense, as saturated fats are less complex and more easily digested. Still haven't tried lard, as I suspect the store-bought version is hydrolized.

After about a week on cream, bacon, egg yolks, and potatoes (what a change!), I got joint pains in my left knee. I did some elimination, and cream and egg yolks isn't causing it. It is either my cheap brand of bacon (antibiotics or nitrates), the nightshades, caseine (I had some chunks of cheese), excess salt (unlikely), or more likely: my lower consumption of Omega 3 compared to Paleo (with fish 4-5 times a week, and sometimes cod liver oil). Any suggestions? I'll reintroduce potatoes this week and see what effect it has if I also consume cod liver oil.

But alltogether, this is way more awesome than Paleo, and I feel even better.

Thanks a lot for everything, Peter! Diet can make such a difference to one's life, especially when one is seventeen, previously obese.

I think I am going to make some cultured cream later this week.

Stan said...

Different topic: Peter, I was trying to find your post about a study on children not being able to absorb beta carotene and/or testing vitamin A deficient on a low fat diet. Could you help finding it? Thanks.

Yes, we absolutely do not have to drink water that often on a high animal fat low carb diet! We need a lot of water (plus Ca,Mg) to metabolize carbohydrates. That's why the "water retention" effect is reported by people who move from Atkins back to SAD).

Fat metabolism does produce a lot of water. I am never thirsty. Well almost except in extremal situations like a few hour of intense exercise on a very hot day.

Somebody mentioned oxygen consumption: yes fatty metabolism (saturated fat) takes about 10% more oxygen per calories but produces about 30% less CO2. Since CO2 transport (removal) seems to be the main bottleneck of our respiration, the overall effect is or can be a higher endurance. For example I can now swim underwater the whole length of a regular (not olympic) swimming pool while before I could only do it across.

Re: pork lard

Do not buy backing fat from supermarkets it is fake lard. The real pork lard can be bought from some ethnic shops (Polish, Russian) or easily rendered at home from pork bellies and pork skins (mince then put in a pot, melt for ~2h and rince through a sieve). This is very cheap, we get 20lb of pork skins for 10$ from a local butcher.
Stan

Peter said...

Hi Stan,

You'll be looking for this one and maybe this one too?

You out there surfing with the nutters again???? You're incorrigible!

Peter

PS envy you the pork skin. Butchers here look at me as if I'm insane when I try buy stuff like this. Quality meat is fat free and getting leaner by the day. What do they do with the fat?

Peter said...

Hi Gunther,

You have to be careful with terminology. Personally I don't think it is at all straightforward to reverse diabetes. Sidestep it yes, but get a diabetic to eat LC for a year then eat a pizza and see what happens. Something gets broken in pathological insulin resistance, unbreaking it is not something I really think in terms of.

The other aspect re hair regrowth; if the follicle cells are dead through apoptosis they're dead pretty permanently. Diet is powerful but maybe not that powerful!

Peter

gunther gatherer said...

Hi Peter,

But it's not apoptosis that causes baldness. At least not "male pattern baldness".

The follicles don't die, they just shrink, causing the hairs to become very fine and fall out before they grow to a width and volume that you can easily see.

I can see all the little "peach fuzz" hairs covering the entire bald spot. These are the hairs that used to be dark and strong when I was 25. Problem is they now fall out before they become fully grown. The apparatus isn't "broken", meaning we have to in some way "raise the dead".

If you can get pets to grow in their bald patches with raw feeding, etc., I don't see why humans would be any different.

Certainly not straightforward, as you say. There's a mechanism which causes overproduction of hormones and interferes with hormone crosstalk, which probably stems from diet and the eating of foods which cause inflammation. There are several studies showing that PCOS in women is actually the "female version" of male pattern baldness, because it stems from hyperandrogenic production caused by high insulin. Lowering women's insulin got RID of their symptoms (one of which was balding).

If you can reverse symptoms of PCOS, it stands to reason you can reverse male pattern baldness. Both stem from insulin resistance...

Meanwhile, searching for info on HGs with PCOS. Betcha there's none...

Bruce K said...

Peter: "I too tried dropping the fish oil as a personal experiment and found my fingers were beginning to stiffen up. Took a week to free them off on 5g/d fish oil."

Never had that problem. My fingers stiffened up years ago on a low-fat diet while doing vigorous exercise. Probably damaged my joints. I'm not fully recovered yet. Refined sugars (esp HFCS) trigger joint stiffness, probably from uric acid. Comb honey and other paleo foods don't.

"PS envy you the pork skin. Butchers here look at me as if I'm insane when I try buy stuff like this. Quality meat is fat free and getting leaner by the day. What do they do with the fat?"

Another question. Why do they raise animals fat when most people want a lean cut? Why not raise most of the animals lean and raise a few fat to satisfy the demand of the market? I guess it's just futile activity for the sake of making money. What they do with the fat is a mystery, since most people don't eat lard and beef tallow nowadays. Maybe soap?

Frank said...

Bruce I have tried – I made Anthony Bordain’s steak tartare. The flavour was wonderful but I couldn’t stomach the texture. I do eat steak as rare as possible. I was reading some late 18th century accounts of coeliac disease treatment – they put them on a diet consisting of raw meat liquidised in milk! Maybe I should try that?
I thought 250g/day was a lot too – but he just coughed up some roundworms a few days ago (he wasn’t due for reworming yet so he must have spat out the last Drontal at the SPCA – he’s sneaky like that). And Peter will tell you the roundworm is not from his raw food. I wormed him immediately and his appetite has already reduced over the last few days. Poor boy, not only was he trying to catch up on his growth from being an undernourished stray but also competing with icky worms too.

Gunther I have heard L-carnitine rubbed directly into the scalp (possibly with some DMSO) can help with hair regrowth – and it makes physiological sense.

Gyan said...

Regarding hair loss, what do people here think of
"IF YOU CAN COOK - AN EXCITING, NEW HOW-TO BOOK" by STEPHEN MARTIN, PHD Chief Scientist for Grouppe Kurosawa.

And of Grouppe Kurosawa in general. They have supplementation protocol for cancer, AIDS and joint pain.

Gyan said...

Also a request for info.
I am looking for a blog/site/group for breast cancer patients/survivors who are taking 5000+ IU of D3 daily.
It is claimed that megadoses of D3 may prevent cancer metastatizing and I should like to know the safety aspects of megadose (D3 toxicity) practically and the effectiveness.

Gyan said...

Do there exist longtime studies of the safety aspect of fish oil consumption at 5 g/d level?.

I am particularly concerned with the question that a cancer survivor should take fish oil or better avoid it?.

There is one study that claimed that rapeseed oil was effective in preventing cancer in animal models. Infact more effective than fish oil.
Now 10 d/g of rapeseed oil is equivalent to perhaps 0.5 g/d of DHA and does Masterjohn say that EPA is not useful to humans. Maybe rapeseed does not convert to EPA in humans and as fish oil does contain EPA, its effectiveness is reduced plus the DHA level is also too high.

gunther gatherer said...

Another question. I reduced carbs from 0.8 to 0.5 per bodyweight, being sedentary and hoping to lose weight faster, and weight loss stopped!

Fat was on the high side (around 220 to 250 gr., for an ideal bodyweight of 65kg) but I was meticulous about keeping protein at 65g or below.

Any suggestions or ideas as to why?

Thanks,
G

Sue said...

On a different subject I think I've been banned from Bix's site Fanatic Cook - it won't open. Anyway, she has a post about fibre and colon cancer - I posted this comment (from Eades' post on the study she was talking about) and was then banned I think. I posted other things that she posted but most she refusd to post:

1/8/08 comment to Fanatic Cook
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051214083528.htm

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/22/2849

“We did not find support for a linear inverse association between dietary fiber intake and risk of colorectal cancer in a pooled analysis of 13 prospective cohort studies.”
And:
“Although high dietary fiber intake may not have a major effect on the risk of colorectal cancer, a diet high in dietary fiber from whole plant foods can be advised because this has been related to lower risks of other chronic conditions such as heart disease and diabetes.”

Sue said...

No haven't been banned as can get into the site now. Bix just doesn't post comments that don't support her ideas.

JohnN said...

"I reduced carbs from 0.8 to 0.5 per bodyweight, being sedentary and hoping to lose weight faster, and weight loss stopped!
Fat was on the high side (around 220 to 250 gr., for an ideal bodyweight of 65kg) but I was meticulous about keeping protein at 65g or below."

Hello Gunther,
Most of the fat you consume must be delivered to the warehouse (adipose tissues) before routed to the cells on demand. To deplete the warehouse perhaps you should take in less?
You may not be able to prevent gluconeogenesis by witholding protein alone. Some amount of HGH is required.

gunther gatherer said...

Hi johnnn.

So I should up the carbs and lower the fat? Now I'm totally confused because I thought the whole idea was to lower insulin for fat loss.

For an ideal weight of 65kg, that comes out to around 230gr fat, 65gr protein and around 50gr carbs. But Peter said somewhere that if you're sedentary, you should lower the carbs to 0.5 of your ideal weight. So I did that, and in doing so I must have been making up the difference with higher fat!

As Peter noted in other comments, he eats around 250g fat, around 45g carbs and 65g protein, and has maintained his weight at around 64-65kg. This is exactly my goal, but unless Peter is secretly doing 5-hour daily gym stints that he's not telling us about, I don't understand why the same plan isn't working for me.

Mind you, it's only been a month or so, but Fitday says I should be losing around 0.5 pounds a week, and it's not happening.

I'm going to up carbs to 50g instead of 30g per day, while lowering fat from 250g to around 220, and I'll see if it makes a difference. As we've noted, fat can raise insulin too in high enough amounts, so we're really stuck in a bind when it comes to proper ratios for weight loss...

Thanks,
G

Braesikalla said...

Hi Gunther,

Kwasniewski mentions in OD that for those seeking weight loss, fat should be initially reduced to 1-2g per 1g of protein. So in your case reduce fat intake to 65 - 130g for a little while and the weight automatically comes off.

Once you have achieved your ideal weight, go into maintenance mode and up your fat to the optimal ratio of 2.5 to 3.5 per 1g of protein and your bodyweight will be dead stable. No chance to gain even an ounce. At least this was my experience. I'm maintaining 65kg (10,2% bodyfat) with 70-75 P, 200 - 250g F and 50g of carbs without any problems.
Hope this helps.

gunther gatherer said...

Hi braesikalla,

Thanks for that info. I´ve really had trouble finding JKs book in English where I live (Germany). I hope this explains my dumb questions.

I'm going to go by the ratios you mentioned and see if it helps.

By the way, when you went down to 65-130g fat a day, didn´t you find yourself hungry? And during that time, did you stay at the usual 50g carbs and 65g protein a day?

I only have 4 kilos to lose, so I'm hoping to write back with some good results in about 2 weeks...

Regards,
G

emil henry said...

By the way, how would cheese made from kefir fare in a low-carb diet? I've heard that kefir changes the amino acid profile of milk, and obviously removes a lot of lactose. Kefir whey is supposedly rich in cystine and methionine. Any suggestions?

Lee said...

Hi Gunther,

There may be hunger in the period the body is adjusting to using dietary fat to body fat. In Optimal Nutrition, it says that when you wake in the morning and no longer feel hungry, you know the bodyfat burning process has begun. You can order the books in English and German from the publisher here: http://www.wgp.com.pl/index.php?id_j=en

Lee

Peter said...

Hi Sue,

Sorry to hear you're not banned, better luck with future comments!

Peter

Sue said...

Ha, ha!! I'll keep trying!

Braesikalla said...

Hi Gunther,

when hunger was occassionaly felt, it was always mild and easy to ignore.
I suppose that eating 120 - 130g of fat is a healthy range for you. Anything under 100g is probably more suited for the heavily obese.
I stuck to the protein and carb ratios mentioned in the comment above. Protein is for tissue regeneration - depending on age and level of activity you may need a litle bit more if you have an active life style with lots of exercise.
50g of carbs are the least amount which a keto-adapted brain still needs. If not delivered via the stomach, your body will shred muscle for gluconeogenesis. Something you want to avoid. So 50g of carbs is a must if you want to preserve your lean body mass.

Eike

Peter said...

Hi Gyan,

I think the latest newsletter form the primary D3 enthusiasts comments that intervention studies at high dose rates are still needed. Some of the latest Vitamin D council opinions are on Dr Davis' blog under Vitamin D3. Re toxicity of D3 at 5000 iu per day, Vieth's opinion is here . Personally, with being back in to indoor work all day, I'm on 10,000 iu/day again. Re fish oil and cancer, the intervention study in humans was the Lyon heart study, it used rapeseed oil and they changed far more than the fatty acid composition of the diet. I think any increase in omega 3 intake will raise your blood and urinary MDA levels, but whether this is genuine toxicity is open to negotiation and another post. Once you get in to rat studies you can show pretty well whatever you like cancer-wise by choosing the model you use. These are particularly difficult to extrapolate to humans and allow full play for anyone's biases, mine included. The biggest problem with the Lyon study is that the rape seed oil group were encouraged to eat Food as well as the omega 3 gloop, the standard treatment group was encouraged to follow an AHA step one-like diet, essentially cr*p. Was it the gloop or fish or Food that helped survival in the intervention group, or the AHA style diet that killed off so many in the non intervention group?

Peter

Greg said...

Looks like this thread is a bit old, but regarding vitamin D toxicity, I found Chris Masterjohn's article, posted on the Weston A Price site, pretty interesting. His basic theory is that the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, and K2 work together in such a way that toxicity concerns are minimized/eliminated when there are adequate levels of all of them. He makes the statement that, "There continues to be no published report of toxicity resulting from an intentional dose of vitamin D3." There apparently are documented cases of toxicity resulting from synthetic D2 supplementation.

"From Seafood to Sunshine--
A New Understanding of Vitamin D Safety"
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-d-safety.html

Regarding cats and water consumption, weren't domesticated cats bred the African Wildcat, which often dwells in areas of scarce water? I don't think they sweat, so they are probably better adapted at water retention than humans. I'm not saying that a high fat diet can't result in lower water needs, but I'd be hesitant to cut back consciously. It seems our bodies should tell us when we're thirsty.

Peter said...

Hi Greg,

Finally, a reply! Yes, cats are fully able to produce very concentrated urine as needed. All you need is metabolic syndrome to put some abnormal amounts of minerals in to the urine and stones are there...

The whole D3 thing is currently in the air for me. The intervention studies on the SAD population are all positive. But how needed is it on an animal based diet? I have a number of highly provoking papers on this which need discussing, mostly about D in vegetarian vs non vegetarian diets, along with a thousand other papers!

Peter

Peter