Tuesday, October 01, 2019

Personal update 2019

Okay, personal update time.

Back in the middle of May this year Paul emailed me to let me know that Dr Kwasniewski had died at the age of 82. The possibility of his having had bowel cancer several years ago is apparently nearly impossible to follow up on but it doesn't appear to have been directly related to his passing away. I'd been meaning to post on this but never quite got round to it until Marco also emailed me with the same news last week. The Optimal Diet (OD) has served me well for about 17 years or so.

May was an interesting time for me. For a set of reasons not at all related to my own health I had been tempted to try the scenario of a paleolithic ketogenic diet, much along the lines of the Paleomedicina PKD protocol. I was basically interested in the level of practicality involved before suggesting it to a friend with a "modern-ketosis" resistant neurological problem. The practicalities eventually proved too problematic so the PKD option was never taken up.

I personally never expected that the PKD would change much for me.

I was wrong.

First, I stopped snoring. As far as I am aware, completely. Within a few days. I have a severely deformed nasal septum, probably traumatic in origin (if playing "toss the caber" as a kid with a larch pole, don't throw it straight up in the air in case it comes vertically back downwards directly on to your nose. Ouch). Both nostrils are severely narrowed. I never expected to ever stop snoring.

Second, the low back pain from which I got enormous relief with the OD, went. I've had three minor positional back injuries in five months but each resolution has been incredibly rapid with minimal analgesic needs.

My minor dry skin problems went within a few days, though this coincided with onset of decent access to sunlight in May, the Spring had been cool here in the UK.

Oh, and I dropped from 66kg to 62kg in a month, 11-12% body fat to 9%, estimated by lower body impedance on a set of Tanita home scales.

I carried on with the PKD.

So now I am stuck.

I really enjoy not being awakened by my wife to get me to roll back to sleeping on my side again, sometimes several times a night. I like having no back pain. I like the continued muscle strength development at the bouldering wall.

On the downside it is very socially uncomfortable. It has really brought home to me how utterly easy standard modern ketogenic eating really is. A bit of cooking and a few sweeteners and there is almost nothing you can't have within the diet.

Over the months on PKD I've added in very occasional cheese and a very, very occasional glass of Proseco on a Friday night, without apparent problems. Adding cauliflower or broccoli triggered low back soreness (I have to wonder if this is a nocebo effect, not exactly double blind!).

So nowadays I'm thinking about protein, GH, IGF-1 and insulin. I've always been cautious about protein levels but there are features about higher protein within a solidly ketogenic background that limits IGF-1 generation per unit GH secretion.

There are a number of posts there.

Currently I am, somewhat reluctantly, almost completely plant free. I'm no guru on this way of eating any more than on anything else, plus I'm very late to the party!



WS said...

Love what you do,If you haven't already, checkout Dave Feldmans work https://cholesterolcode.com/ look under lean mass hyper responders.

JustPeachy said...

Wow! Can't wait to read more about it!

Passthecream said...

It is a great experience to work out, or to stumble into a diet change that has such unexpected good effects. I remember when I first tried low carb and low pufa eating all sorts of weird things suddenly stopped being a problem, things which I hadn't known as improvable problems. In reality I think it was actually the elimination of some problem foods: sugar, vegetable oils and wheat rather than the change in macros which gave the most benefit. Drop grains and sugar and you automatically have different macros anyway. Roll forward a few years until a few months back, I was having a horrible gout-like problem in my thumbs at about the same time that I noticed that my vitA intake was very high. Just in case that really was a 'thing' I went on a very bland diet with lots of beef, no dairy products, no eggs and a bit of rice, occasional white cabbage and onions.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Tragically(!) in retrospect I realised that this was more or less a meatier Pritikin diet without the fruit and veg, but --- it only took 24 hours for the gouty arthritis to completely stop hurting. Not just the thumbs cleared up but also a long term sore hip, neck(ancient whiplash), and the energy boost was phenomenal. I was genuinely hyperactive for about two weeks and again, lots of unexpected improvements. My second personal revolution. In retrospect I think it was mostly the dairy food that was problematic but I am not willing to change much atm since my elimination diet cuts out a huge range of problematic substances: oxalates, salicylates, agglutenins/lectins, sorbitol, tannins etc etc, most of the huge range of problem plant toxins. (And carotenes)

I'm really happy that you have found a thing which works for you like that. It is possible that our different approaches which seem a bit chalk-and-cheese (sorry!) on the surface have some absence in common.

altavista said...

Found this in a blog on the internet :)


bill said...

I read Dr Kwasniewski's book Homo Optimus a few years ago. Dr. Eric Westman gave a copy to me. I'm sorry to hear of his passing. I loved his assiduousness. I wish I could watch his youtube videos, but unfortunately don't speak Polish.

Amber O'Hearn said...

Hi, Peter. That's great news!

Back in 2009, my then-husband, Zooko, had snoring and generally nasal breathing problems secondary to a septum abnormality that he had been considering surgery for at one point. Carnivore immediately fixed that, along with many other things that we presumed were physical / anatomical. However, this was long before the PKD existed and we were certainly not eating 2:1. While I think 2:1 plant free has superb healing properties, the plant free part is not to be overlooked. Many of the same results seem to be had regardless of the macronutrient ratio, provided it's not too much less than 1:1.

As another anecdote, soon after this one, a 20-something acquaintance of Zooko's with stage four astrocytoma (for which his doctors had exhausted treatment options and given him a short time to put his affairs in order) announced he was going to seek euthanasia because the constant headaches were too much to bear. At Zooko's suggestion he tried an all meat diet with no macronutrient instructions whatsoever. His headaches subsided within days and his cancer disappeared over the course of months never to return. This is a case that might be considered "too serious" to do without the strict keto component, and yet for him it was completely unnecessary.

While I do know of cases and people who definitely thrive better on 2:1, I think it's important to consider them as separable. I can't claim carnivore is socially easy, but it's considerably easier than PKD.

cavenewt said...

Peter, I know you resist thinking of yourself as a guru, and rest assured I don't think of you as one—rather, your ideas expand and inform on information gleaned elsewhere. I went low carb (keto at first) 10 years ago when I was diagnosed with a mystery autoimmune neuropathy. While it did not have any discernable effect on that condition, it improved my health and overall well-being in so many ways that I've never looked back. After so many years, the social aspect is not that big of a hurdle.

Lately I've been thinking about experimentally eliminating dairy and/or vegetables altogether. Rationalization note, most dairy I do is local raw grass fed goat milk, fermented, or Kerrygold butter; veggies are non-starchy, no legumes. Now I've got more urgent impetus to look into this more seriously because at the moment I'm waiting on biopsy results from a breast lump. At least I already have passing familiarity with Seyfried and Longo.

So thank you for this as well as your recent post on Ketones in Tehran. Now to go read up on PKD. Assuming this is the one you mean: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/paleo-keto/

Pierre said...

Peter what do you think of this snippet from Paleomedicina.


Walter Voegtlin on Stone age diet and exercise – extract from his book ”Stone Age Diet”

It is well-known that carnivorous animals on a meat-fat diet, even though confined to small pens or cages for long periods of time, seem to retain their vigor, strenght, and endurance even though denied the opportunity to exercise. The meat-fed lion and tiger of zoo or circus retain their strenght and ability to make prodigious leaps. Sled dogs of the North are customarily confined by leashes or in small kennels during the summer and fed nothing but meat and fish. When winter comes these animals are ready at once for arduous duty; they require no period of physical training or conditioning before being put into the traces for eight to twelve hours of grueling work.

I have been told that hunting dogs maintained between seasons on meat and fat show this same retention of hard muscles, stamina, and vigor, even if put in the field directly from kennels. The Eskimo spends most of his time in practical inactivity during the winter, being confined in his snow-covered hut, eating meat, fish, and fat, rarely venturing outside (7).

karl said...

I'm close to the same place in diet - I do like my cheese and butter. I have a couple of hunches. One of the differences between humans and other apes is our brains. One hunch is that we were able to make the recent advances because of diet - our brains require a lot of fat to insulate neurons. Our brains appear to work better on keto-diets.

The idea that we are omnivores is based on denture leaves out just how recent our brains have advanced. So the question becomes - are we still optimally omnivores? I don't think so. When we look back to the recent past - meat-eating tribes were stronger - and dominated the non meat eating tribes. I think meat eaters get a survival benefit - perhaps we are in the flux of evolutionary change.

The other bit is we eat cooked meat - easier to digest. Better nourished brains make better hunters?

A couple of other bits - the diets of primitive tribes were not focused on muscle meat - but on fatty organ meat. Some times the muscle meat was discarded.

The first Europeans that came to the Americas were eating the new hydraulic agriculture diet - I read some history of the Dutch that were impressed by the size and strength of the natives. I think the diet of sailors was particularly bad - to the point of scurvy - but the castles I saw in Europe impressed me most in how low the passage-ways were - they were much shorter.

My non scientific observation of my vegan friends is that they look sickly - even more sickly than the general population that now eats even more carbs than in 1960. I think the skin of carb eaters tends to look a bit inflamed - and waxen.

OT - I'm also wondering if cellulite skin on women's legs is related to diet - PUFA? They could run a study that looked for correlation between PUFA in fat tissue (Via a type of MRI ) and cellulite skin.

Norma said...

I’m interested to know what the difference is between what you eat now, Peter, compared with before. I understood that you didn’t eat plants, but you ate butter and cream, so is it that you’ve given up the dairy? I, too, have paid for the diet information from Paleo medecina and I’m puzzled that whilst the diet is ketogenic, the vegetables are to be root vegetables. As far as Paleo vegetables are concerned, this is from a national geographic article:

“Ancient tomatoes were the size of berries; potatoes were no bigger than peanuts. Corn was a wild grass, its tooth-cracking kernels borne in clusters as small as pencil erasers. Cucumbers were spiny as sea urchins; lettuce was bitter and prickly. Peas were so starchy and unpalatable that, before eating, they had to be roasted like chestnuts and peeled. The sole available cabbage—the great-great-granddaddy of today’s kale, kohlrabi, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, and cauliflower—was sea kale, a tough and tongue-curling leafy weed that grew along the temperate sea coasts. Carrots were scrawny. Beans were naturally laced with cyanide.”

On the other hand, as well as no dairy, cereals or legumes, the PKD also forbids nuts, which I find strange. We do know that tropical fruits have always been large, sweet and abundant.

I think the ratio of meat to meat fat is hard to get right and like most people, I’m not keen on giving up coffee, but I’ve found that sparkling mineral water is good to drink.

Bob said...

A few years ago I read an interview with Ronald Krauss discussing his findings that saturated fat intake was not statistically linked to heart disease. What stuck in my mind was his comment that most dietary saturated fat comes from dairy. Paleo excludes dairy.

Doesn't that mean a meat-based keto diet has a higher ratio of monounsaturated-to-saturated fat? Certainly for me it would. And it would be quite a change considering I looooooooooooove my butter, sour cream, and cheese. Sometimes together.

I wonder if some of the benefits of PKD derive from reducing saturated fat vis-a-vis an unsaturated source that is not plant-based. Of course, I can't see what's wrong with dairy fats, but then, what do I know.....

Johnny said...

Peter, I would (like Norma) love to hear what are the main differences between the Optimal Diet as you ate it and the PKD as you're eating it. You mention dropping dairy, cauliflower, and broccoli. What were the other big changes? I'm trying to figure out what is the most likely source of these excellent changes. Thank you.

Peter said...

Hi WS, yes, I’ve heard some of Dave’s work. I still am a serious cholesterol denier and the lipid hypothesis is essentially indestructible. Happily the cardiologists will eventually skirt around it. It won’t be abandoned but in 50 years time it will never have been believed.

JustPeachy, I’m not sure I have much to add but there are some data out there about IGF-1 that might bear repeating.

Pass, it has occurred to me that many chronic problems may actually be very transient acute problems maintained by chronic acute injury. Stop the injury from plants and chronic problems resolve in a matter of days. A common absence may be very important.

Alta, if I get round to checking anything in the near future it will be insulin and IGF-1. I’m still concerned that if you consume enough meat to chronically raise insulin you will chronically raise IGF-1. Which might be good to avoid frailty and bad if you promote tumour growth. So many questions.

Bill, I particularly liked JK’s ideas about temperament and diet. I do wonder if the syndrome of the millennial temperament is the responsibility of the cardiological community and their saturophobia.

Hi Amber, absolutely. What amazed me was the speed of the changes. I have to say I checked with my GP about my nose and the concept of having it re broken didn’t really appeal to me. He prescribed a steroid spray which worked but I didn’t fancy it long term. But an inflammatory process was clearly there on top of the deformity. Interesting about the astrocytoma… Initially I struggled with the need for so much fat but now just pour a cup of water in to the remaining fat in the pan with some salt and boil it to give a weak stock like drink with a centimetre of fat floating on top. Fine at home but eating out is butter as a fall back on your steak.

cave, I think your best introduction might be Dr. Zsófia Clemens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDPM8o9jcFA talking at the Boulder carnivore conference (well done Amber, Miki Ben-Dor’s comment about how good it was took me back to some of the amazing anaesthesia meetings I went to last century. Some meetings change your life. Sounds like your congress was a good ‘un).

Pierre, I think Stefansson made the same observation. Even without huge protein loading I seem to be climbing quite well. If I’m sensible and think about routes between climbs I can manage two and a half hours pretty well. Interestingly I climb best fasted. The wall opens at 10am and I generally get breakfast between 2 and 3pm on climbing days.

karl, yes, I’m much more conscientious about offal nowadays. We’ve just bought two dairy goats so eventually I might think a bit about dairy long term. Not sure. PUFA, can anything not be at least in part be PUFA triggered?

Norma, over the years I had progressively increased the amount of 90% cocoa solids chocolate I consumed (I have a lot of time for stearic acid oxidation) and of macadamias, a bit too high in MUFA but at least almost no PUFA. And a lot of leaf vegetables. Cream and butter were big staples.

We have a weed in the UK called Queen Anne’s Lace. I think it is the wild carrot. It wouldn’t sell at Tesco!

Bob, certainly my core source of calories on PKD is beef dripping, very high in stearic acid. In the beginning I worked hard to get raw suet to render myself but here in the UK the effort to find a butcher who will source it is enormous and I’ve dropped back to commercial dripping. The crispy bits left after you render raw suet are just scrummy!

Johnny, mostly I suspect it is the lack of plants. But I’m willing to change my mind if I find evidence to the contrary.

OK gotta get the house woken up, sorry if this is full of typos. A work day today…


Pernickety said...

I don’t know if you’ve seen this paper yet Peter, but I thought it might be of interest. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12368-2
Looking forward to your posts on IGF-1!

Peter said...

"Who ordered that?" Looks interesting


Galina L. said...

While humans are omnivores our foods are nor of equal quality. Diverse diets are suitable for healthiest people/

davemoriarty2 said...

Hi Peter,

I was just wondering what you think is the mechanism behind restricting plants and then becoming even more intolerant afterwards. Like I know you said that after going low carb, gluten caused an even worse reaction than before, even though you were healthier.
I'm thinking of going PKD to solve some issues, but I don't want to be stuck there, lest I want to eat out every once in a while, or am with family, etc.

Galina L. said...

I think people with cancer and autoimmune conditions should avoid milk proteins

David Johnston said...

You can count yourself as the primary cause of me trying a carnivorous diet and losing 70 pounds. This came from your posts on the problems with wheat and other plants. I'm very much looking forward to your future posts on aspects of such a diet.

Norma said...

Thanks for replying, Peter. Yes I’m in the UK- thank you for the information. It seems to me that you are more pure carnivore than PKD. I’ve read their information and paid for the diet info and they do eat veg, which you can also see in the photos of their clinic. You can eat more than their 400g a day if you’re active. Many people report huge problems adapting to their diet, in fact not really adapting at all, some lasting way PST the 4-5 months adaptation.

I had serious gut problems for the weeks that I went carnivore and my triglycerides shot up, but I was still eating cream. Also I have RA, which though well controlled with stuff that kills B cells, might affect my blood lipids. I really wanted the carnivore diet to be a miracle. I don’t trust myself to get the PKD fat: meat ratio right but I will try again.

Queen Anne’s lace is big in naturalist planting and you can get the seeds for many colours. I’ve read accounts of how children used to eat the root of pignut, Conopodium majus, when hungry. I would never trust myself not to eat hogweed by mistake. Young hawthorn leaves were called “bread and cheese” not because they taste of either, but because they stave off hunger pangs. That and the bit of the article I quoted really bring home how little veg our ancestors had available.

Jay said...

Peter does that mean you've given up the dark chocolate as well as the cream?

Norma - I gave up all dairy more than 18 months ago and found the stiffness in my joints (due to an 'atypical RA' - only positive for Rheumatoid Factor not the other markers) disappeared after about 10 days. Gluten makes me ache but is slower acting whereas (accidental) exposure now to even butter can elicit pain or stiffness overnight. Not a nocebo effect because I don't do it on purpose!

cavenewt said...

Galina L, and incidentally Peter:

Re your comment about avoiding dairy...does this discussion about beta-casomorphin (BMC7) and A1 vs A2 milk have any bearing on your opinion?


Most of my dairy consumption is fermented raw grass-fed goat milk (A2).

Passthecream said...

Peter --- it's a matter of working out what is a 'cute injury and what us not so cute when it's at home. When I was younger I used to smirk rudely whenever I heard the phrase 'liver detox'. When my wife was diagnosed with Gilbert's syndrome (which is not so much a syndrome as a loose grouping of enzyme deficiencies mostly concerned with glucuronidation), well I stopped smirking so much and finally understood why she just couldn't tolerate most solanums and some other things --- glucuronidation being a process whereby various hydrophobic nasties are made water soluble therefore able to be eliminated via kidneys etc or sometimes even made useful, including the stuff in those South American fruit and veg.

At our age now however a typical normal liver is smaller than it was at the immortal age of 18 and probably less efficient. Presumably the capacity to eliminate various nasties declines similarly. I suspect this is evolution's way of turning the elderly into tribal food testers. Of course glucuronidation is only one of many, many important enzymatic toxin converting processes but many of them are liver and kidney based.

So, what about 'cute?

(For me though I'm fairly sure ITDFS - cheese etc)

Passthecream said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Passthecream said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cavenewt said...

Duckduckgo not helping to figure out ITDFS...

Kajus said...

I notice that I need less sleep on the PKD diet and the pain in my knees is gone.I eat between 11 am and 2 pm. Not hungry after this. My problem is finding fat from animals. Wonder if gee can fix this by removing the milk protein.

Passthecream said...

"It's the dairy food stupid"
Self-directed, nothing personal.
It's up there with ITIS.

Passthecream said...

Kajus, probably not the right blog to mention that my own shift to a beefy diet with a few bland veg didn't include much extra fat than whatever was in the cheap cuts of meat, and I was still lucky enough to get rapid improvements. Ymmv.

I have a Fear of Frying inspired by Spitteler's ideas, the high temp plus the metal cookware, so I get big lumps of beef when on special and cook them in a crockpot - a cheap electric slow cooker. A piece of brisket or bolar roast is extremely tender this way and keeps me going for a few days. The water from the cooking has the soluble proteins and can be reduced to a tasty broth or stock by leaving the lid off for a while. Nice if you throw in a couple of onions and some celeriac etc. (Sorry Peter!) Otherwise just skim any rendered fat off the top and keep it for cooking and eating. The rest is still in the meat so none gets wasted.

Peter said...

Hi Galina, yes. I really like Miki Ben-Dor’s post on adaptation at http://www.paleostyle.com/?p=2131. We are all adapted to modern diets, some more so than others. My addition is that the process of adaptation is by the early death and impaired reproductive success of individuals. Populations adapt via the suffering of individuals. The process of adaptation is what we call pathology and the blunting of its impact is medicine. The fall back diet is meat, to avoid pathology (incidentally halting adaptation). I suspect you are correct about milk proteins.

David, I hope you have not suffered too much in the process!

Norma, Interesting. I had picked up that some vegetable were ok but I got the impression that they were for people without metabolic issues and were mostly roots. My wife’s crop of beetroot was pretty good this year so I do have the very occasional slice with scrambled eggs (using beef fat).

Jay, yes…

cave, I’m suspicious it may be to do with how effectively they are broken down. The pro-inflammatory response to casein is independent of A1 A2 types in the mammary gland to suppress lactation if there is no suckling for a few days. How much inflammation the casein might produce in a human GI tract might (guessing) be related to how effectively it is broken down, A1 might be more persistent. The casmorphins are unknowns re immunity but, as an anaesthetist, almost all drugs I use, particularly opioids, are immunosuppressive. Are endorphins/exorphins? Why not?

Pass, the whys are interesting but it certainly does seem that more stuff is a problem as you age!

Kajus, I wake every morning at about 5am feeling clear headed. I think for a while. At about 5.30 a tractor passes by (silage to a dairy herd?) and I get up soon after to start the hours at around 6am. In the UK we can buy pre-rendered beef fat. It’s not as nice or as saturated as raw beef suet but suet is nowadays a nightmare to get hold of. I managed for a while but the one butcher can only get it very occasionally and I can’t ever rely on it. Most butchers can’t supply it.


Peter said...

Hi davemoriarty2, I’ve not looked in to this but the phenomenon of oral tolerance is very real. It is the basis of desensitisation allergy management, both orally and parenterally. It has even been used for blunting severe peanut allergy in kids. Best description of the immune system ever? “It’s complicated”. Your concept of becoming limited in food choices is very real. I am considering the occasional meal out of PKD with some circumspection about the choice of toxins to ingest…


Passthecream said...

The Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney(Au) has a very good allergy unit and lots of usefull info at their website about food intolerances and elimination diets.


I don't agree with some of what they suggest as a base diet but they have treated thousands of patients, my oldest daughter included, so have significant clinical experience. They probably do know what they're talking about.

In their resources there is a pdf about milk allergy.


Table 2 is interesting, and the accompanying text:

"An important point about any adverse reactions to milk to note that it is unusual for milk to be the only food that is the problem. Milk allergy is commonly associated with allergies to eggs and/or peanuts (Table 2) and milk intolerance is commonly associated with intolerance reactions to soy and other protein foods and/or fruits and vegetables."

After starting a diy elimination diet I discovered by accident that I am allergic to peanuts. I can't stand them anyway but the increased potential reactivity is something to watch out for. Eggs ok luckily. Phew!

Bob said...


Can you describe your peanut allergy? My impression is that "peanut allergy" is commonly equated with anaphylactic shock and death. My own peanut allergy is more "the entire alimentary canal" and very uncomfortable but not deadly. This is true of both peanuts and peanut butter. The symptoms are unmistakable and immediate on first bite.

I have the same reactions to pecan and buckwheat.

And yet, many years ago, I ate a protein bar on an airplane and only discovered after I'd eaten it that it was made with peanut flour. It didn't bother me.

Any of this sound familiar?

Passthecream said...

Similar. I dislike the taste of them but have never knowingly had a reaction to them before. Trust your food radar! In the first couple of weeks of diet when I had highly elevated mood and energy, consumed some mix with them in and had classic symptoms of itchy throat and mildly swollen tongue which developed slowly over an hour or so but went away very slowly too. Frightening actually. After that I started carrying some fast acting antihistamines with me but I don't want to repeat the experiment. My son in law has a peanut/legume allergy of the deadliest kind so I am aware of the danger.

Do milk and peanuts have anything specific in common, in their proteins maybe? Peanut proteins are very 'sticky' apparently - reactive?

Passthecream said...


Betsy said...

Looking through your past posts for one to read today, I chose one about protein from 2018 because of this post and the concern about GH, Igf-1, and the possiblity of too much protein in my diet. I found this study that you mentioned in the comments: However this paper by Bielohuby: "Lack of Dietary Carbohydrates Induces Hepatic Growth Hormone (GH) Resistance in Rats" is interesting from the point of view of both drifts.

I haven't looked for it yet, but am wondering if you have any thoughts on the study.

Thank you,

Peter said...

Hi Betsy,

I have that paper too and it intrigued me for months. However their finding is that low IGF-1 fails to cause increased GH by a hypothalamic failure. Under their most extreme keto diet there was low IGF-1 but no increased GH to attempt to compensate for this. I'm more interested in conditions where GH really is high while IGF-1 stays low. That is fasting, which imitates ketogenic eating, as Amber has suggested elsewhere. To this state insulin is the key. With low insulin you can have as much GH as you like, IGF-1 will stay low or drop. This looks to be a pretty good situation to me.

The paper is not exactly clearly written, but does have a finding, even if it's not the one I'm interested in. Catchy title too! Ten out of ten for that.


Betsy said...

Ok, thanks, Peter. That is good news. That's a relief.

DLS said...

so peter peter my 1,0 diet of rib eye steaks + yokls WHIT NO BUTTER at all (LARD FAT) WSNTE THAT BAD after all???? BAD ok i was consuming ANIMAL CARBS, regular store milk AND CHESSE, AND dark CHOCOLATE... but i was ripped! never touched cream, coconut, butter, LIKE A DO NOW.... im still riped, but by legs are busted ( synovectomy in the plans...) SO TIME TO GO BACK'... icea crema makes my fasting easy but i think is fuking me up long therm... btw, did 3 non consecutive 24 hr DRY FASTs.. my leg whit edema improved... but as soon as the food is back also the pain!...

DLS said...

i think i need to get back 2 eating pizza fasting and not givina a fuk! XD

Peter said...

Hi DLS, still going! I can see it's hard to stick with a self imposed protocol if it doesn't deliver the goods. Good luck with the legs!


DLS said...

Thanks...migth try paleoketoingit buti have tons of cream, butter, chesse, cacao, coconut... to eliminate first... few months ago i did A LOT of minced beef heart / meat AND it wascrazy. Infinite Energy rush with ni
O dips, like on drugs! But then developed acné and my sleep was shit.

DLS said...

What im doing... 2 "op" ice creams (lol)(77/88gr cream + 4- 5 raw yolks total / vanilla or cacao, 0 sugar) 2_3 xxl large cinnamon vanilla coconut scones with the egg whites (baked to hell) then a lot of minced meat, pork, chiken, mushroons, with buter /lard spices. Sometines i ditch the scones and eat a lot off semi hard + cream chesse ! 41 now. 62km and riped chest but my rigth leg Is inflamed AND the docs are cluless all my test are great! Im thinking casein / lactose/ oxalates/ = autoinmune shit.. but dont know if eating like Lecter is da Solution!

DLS said...

Btw 100%perfect skin now, look like 20 years old. But it migth be the hard dry fasts. Legs? 100 years old XD

Betsy said...

DLS, for your right leg is inflammation, check your ileocecal valve. If it's block up in some way, it can be blocking lymphatic drainage, too.

DLS said...

thanks betsy! going to look that, im doing lymphatic drainage massages with no success :/ my calf muscle is full of liquid and knee is fat with compromised mobility. ...no intestinal abdominal pain distress , fever, etc

Betsy said...

I am just now getting over very similar symptoms, but I also had extreme pain in my knee, probably from damage from a fall about 7 years ago. But lymphatic draining massage did help to certain degree. I have had to cut back to only meat, little bit of cheese, decaf coffee and cream (although I probably should stop that, too), and water. I don't know if you are familiar with alka seltzer, but taking that twice a day helped, too. One strange thing about the ileocecal valve is that certain foods that you would never suspect can affect it. You can try ileocecal massage, but for me, at least, I had to cut out a lot of foods. It's just a weak point that I guess I will always have to deal with. Chocolate, even if it's cocoa powder, maybe eggs and mushrooms, might have to go for a bit to see if it will help. I am glad to be able to walk normally, I am trying not to complain.

DLS said...


ok MY BS METER JUST EXPLODED. fasting is a PERFECT mach for keto, if this guy is not able to see that, then... what else is he missing? A LOT I GUESS. also, dogma much? "This is the diet shaped by your evolutionary past" and is the "only way of curing diseases" LOL the only way? really? now im having som serious 2ND toughs ABout a life of eating nothing but pork fat plus a tinny bit of meat @ and eggs... what about the omega ratios? pufa? sudenly its ok to dive in a pool of animal pufa?

@ insulin! glucose path... again irrelevant if im fasting

DLS said...

sodium? no need , everything comes along with the diet use salt according to "taste"
ok AGAIN BULLSHIT! IF YOU DO INTERMITTENT FASTING + KETO SURE AS HELL YOU NEED TO ADD A LOT OF EXTRA SODIUM! it seems this guys are total noobcakes regarding fasting...

Betsy said...

Peter, do you have an opinion on what the exact thing about Dr. Kwasniewski's diet is not a good choice? I am guessing it would be everything except the beef and fat, but I am in partial denial about giving up cream and coffee. I am reading about paleomedicina and finding it interesting. I appreciate your blog and your in depth research, although I will admit that I don't understand most of it.

cavenewt said...

I paid the US$35 for the PaleoMedicina diet information and watched the video Peter recommended. Some of it I like, some of it seems...screwy. Their objections to intermittent fasting/fasting are superficial and spurious, and not relevant to somebody who pays attention. And after 10 years of low-carb I would have a really hard time eating root vegetables again, although in this plan they are at least optional.

Their treatment is based on the belief that intestinal permeability is the root of all evil. It may well be. I believe that it's definitely a huge factor, but not the only one.

I'm integrating some of it (recent cancer diagnosis), because it reinforces what I was already inclined towards. I'm giving up nightshades and dairy. Hot peppers will be the biggest sacrifice. Hopefully horseradish is allowed!

Betsy said...

Cavenewt, do you mind if I ask what type of cancer you have been diagnosed with?
I can't eat root vegetables, but I guess if one wanted a bit of carbs, that would be the safest way to go. Right now any forms of starch bother me in one way or another.

I could see how giving up the zing of hot peppers would be a sacrifice in such a limited diet. I have been walking away from the table thinking something is missing, it's definitely not easy.

DLS said...

cavenewt stay strong! Fasting is good resource. If you are expereineced /keto adapted hard dry fasting migth be a good idea https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=2&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://filonov.net/statji/suh-golod-effektivno SERGEI IVANOVICH FILONOV a rusian doc, same story 20 years xp, clínica yada yada some bullshit claims.some.truth regarding paleo ketoinit... I gave up cheese, butter, cocoa, peanuts. Kept cream... It has marginal casein and lactose (perfect is da.enemy of good) aded heart, bacón, pork, animalnfat to da protein...) Well see...

cavenewt said...

Betsy, breast cancer, invasive ductile carcinoma, ER & PR pos, Her2 neg. that's all I know so far—meeting surgeon tomorrow. If it hasn't spread, I may be able to avoid chemo in favor of surgery + hormone therapy. Fingers crossed. So much for 10 years of virtuous low-carbing. Takes more than that to overcome 5 decades of SAD, it seems, and enlightenment re veg oils was more than recent (thanks to Hyperlipid).

DLS thanks, already I only eat once a day, have now pretty much dropped veggies, nightshades, dairy, and reduced calories. Fasting longer hasn't been difficult in the past. I was already familiar with Longo's work with cancer patients, so I have a head start.

Wouldn't butter have less casein even than cream?

Passthecream said...

A tiny little bit of fresh horseradish goes a long way! I also satisfy my minimal desire for spice with some ginger and some fresh ground white pepper. Long pepper is tasty, and sichuan pepper. Tiny amounts --- I'm living dangerously.

Some plants with high levels of flavonoids and similar compounds such as quercetin, luteolin etc may be 'medicinal' in certain contexts. Riboflavin per example.

Peter said...


Yes, the Paleomedicina group have some excellent ideas and some not quite so convincing ideas. Out of idle curiosity I ran a PEG 400 test while on the OD and came out utterly, utterly normal. All molecular weights absorbed/excreted at the rock bottom baseline levels.

Despite that there have still been the remarkable improvements in low grade inflammatory problems. A number of other changes have also come to mind since I wrote this post. Bear in mind I expected nothing when I tried it. I still suspect a lot of my changes really are due to lack of plants +/- dairy and am currently trying re-removing cheese as I had a few back niggles after a couple of weeks of the occasional cheese, goat and then commercial cow. But this is very, very subjective.

One of the aspects of PKD that I liked (and still do) is the case reports. The effect on the chap with colorectal cancer, a close parallel problem to that of breast cancer, seems quite real. I’d anticipate lowering IGF-1 would be core and OMAD should do that, especially when combined with low insulin.

I know omega 6 PUFA have lots of signalling nasties for growth promoting as “high level” effects, as in Sauer’s fasted rats, but to me it is their ability to facilitate insulin signalling in the presence of cellular excess calories which might be the provider of both excess ATP, NADH and growth signalling would be one of their most core problems. There are, without a doubt, differences in electron transport chain function depending on the length and saturation of the lipids available even under fasting conditions. At what level the PUFA problems kick in strikes me as a complete unknown. Currently anyway. I like fried belly pork but it’s quite a small part of my diet cf beef mince…

Pass, yes, context will be everything. The one which comes to mind is silymarin for hepatopathy. It helps if your liver is f*cked by PUFA plus sugar/alcohol. But it looks like a sticking plaster on a lipid hypothesis problem to me…


Passthecream said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Betsy said...

cavenewt, I am sorry to hear about your having breast cancer. I hope that you won't need the chemo, too.

Peter, do you think the effects of gluten and casein are due to having glutamate effect on the NMDA receptor? I saw both of them in the list of things that can cause glutamate issues.

I was reading at the paleomedicina website and saw they recommend the meat cream diet, and I am sure they mean meat and cream, right? right?

Pernickety said...

Betsy, I believe their meat cream recipe is actually a semi-solid mixture of various cuts of fatty meat along with organs (likely liver or brain) and animal fat to reach the correct fat:protein ratio.
If the effects of gluten and casein are due to glutamate acting on the NMDA receptor, that might link into the success of gluten and casein restriction in autistic individuals, if the hyperglutamatergic hypothesis of autism is correct.

altavista said...

I'm surprised nobody commenting on Kwasniewski.

Atkins gone at 72 with congestive heart failure, Kwasniewski at 82 with bowel cancer. I know it's n=2 and we're not immortals, but cancer? That takes 10-20 years, and on OD?

Be interesting to hear what in the OD is the most susceptible culprit. I think Peter gave an unsubstantiated hint already.

Cavenewt, have you been strict LC the past 10 years? Is there time to try Dom D'agostino's hyperbaric chamber/vitC protocol?

Pernickety said...

Altavista, I'm not so good at inferences. Would you mind stating what you think Peter has hinted at being the most likely culprit? Is it the plants, dairy, PUFAs?

DLS said...

O doubt kawa (rip) fasted a single day in all his life, not even when sick (a lil soop) so im not scared. cavenewt keep nailing omad, dont know about reducing calories maybe intermintenly? Dry omad of 18 - 24 hrs is poweefull of you are fat adapted. I had no thirst and sleeped ok. The bs claim its x3 regular fasting so ot migth be s good thing, also starving cáncer cels from water seems like a good idea https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16271440 yes cream.is not as.good as butter. i just love.icecream XD main poisons ares: 40% cream (87cc) diseccated shreded coconut (42 grams) cyclamate sacharin/ a few tesspons, vanilla extract a few teespons (alcohol) regular salt (cakin agents) filted tap water (lots of shit) so many things 2 adress XD !

DLS said...

Im thinking of going the pkd route i have to do the same but drop the cream, coconut, sweteners, vanilla, keep the 4 yolks/ or eggs(icecream/scones) and add 140 gr of cow fat.... Fun stuff!

Betsy said...

Is there anything about the OD that is counterproductive to the ketogenic diet? (And was the Atkins diet ketogenic?)

Betsy said...

cavenewt, I don't know what this might lead on to think, but found this:
Breast cancer expresses functional NMDA receptors.

All of these data point to active NMDAR receptors being expressed by most breast cancers, and having an important influence on their survival.

Maybe Peter knows a reason for this and that finding this out doesn't really mean much, but I thought I would list it anyway.

cavenewt said...

Betsy, thanks, I'll study that. I can't tell from the abstract if I'm going to be able to understand much!

Altavista, yes, strict LC the last nine years going on 10. I only cut out the vegetable oils five years ago, super strictly as of a couple of years ago. Started fasting about four years ago, currently I only eat once a day; don't know if you can count cream in my tea in the morning; the last week I've switched to coconut cream. I only found out about this cancer a week ago and now I'm scheduled for surgery day after tomorrow. I figured I would mostly fast before and after, per Longo . No time for a hyperbaric/vitamin C and I can only do stuff my insurance will cover anyway.

Betsy said...

Pernickety, yes, I agree with your description of the meat cream, but when I first read meat cream my mind went to meat and cream and had a happy moment.

cavenewt, I hope everything goes as well as possible with your surgery and that you don't need chemo.

Reading about paleomedicina makes me very hopeful that I will be able to be well. I will slowly cut out the cream and coffee. I am having difficulty adding enough beef fat, and I have lost too much weight. I am having some leg and foot cramping, I wonder if the diet works that out or if for some reason I will always need to take magnesium.

DLS said...

my half assed atempt of eating more offal and less cream adding butter... felling slightly ungry eating 2000+ cals... this blows! to much protein https://ibb.co/Qfs9xbz keto is way easier. im going to buy some beef fat, brain, liver and pork.... im starting to crake cheese btw, lol

Passthecream said...

To stop a cramp in progress try a pinch of ordinary sea-salt under your tongue and a 1/4 glass of water. Might work for you. I have had mighty cramps on and off for years, usually more in cold weather or from rapid temperature changes. I lost a lot of weight over the last 15 years and have very muscle-y legs. Other than that, no clues as to why.

Betsy said...

This is a video about paleomedicina.

Bob said...

cavenewt, besgt of luck with the surgery. Hope they destroy all of your cancer.

altavista, I thought Atkins died from complications of a head injury.

Anyway, just a thought. Most of us here spent many years of our early lives exposed to too much sugar and vegetable oils. Maybe not as much as today's Millenials and Gen-Zers (I'm a middle Baby Boomer), but still. I didn't start low-carb until I was 54. I would like to imagine my diet protects me from cancer and heart disease, but that's likely just wishful thinking.

We need a generation of people -- or at least a large cohort -- who eat healthy from the get-go and see what happens to them. Peter's kids come to mind, but it's unlikely many of us will be around in sixty years to find out.

altavista said...

Bob, depends how you hit your head.


Peter, this might be of interest to your experiment. Picked it from an old post. The 60s were the time for science. They even gave the mice' initials :)


Peter said...

Alt, I've posted on that paper in detail a very, very long time ago. But the blog is so big even I can't find it! It gets an honourable mention in a couple of the Skulachev post...

Flemming is a simple PCRM crook. Atkins had his problems but wasn't a pathological liar (ie where did he get those ideas about progressively increasing carbohydrate intake from?). You want to read Yudkin on Atkins, they weren't friends.


Bob said...

altavista, thanks for NYT link. I knew most of that story but not the snafu that caused Atkins's medical records to be released to his enemies. I'll have to locate my copy of Good Calories, Bad Calories to remember what Gary Taubes said about interviewing Atkins before he died.

Regarding your other link:

Incredibly, the post citing the paper was just over eight years ago.

"Insulin's inhibition of lipolysis, in a normal human being, occurs at concentrations which do not even budge muscle glucose uptake. Infuse it directly in to the arterial supply to the fore arm and the systemic hypoglycaemic effect is lost."

The phrase "do not even budge muscle glucose uptake" has always lingered in my mind.

Peter, Lutz said he tried to convince Atkins that the "induction phase" of his diet was a mistake (an unnecessary shock for most people) but to no avail.

DLS said...

So. Pkd... Im doing something wrong. Gaining belly fat fast ( wtf is this shit MEGA fail) ALSO MILD acne. But my leg is getting better. Too much protein? Anybody here FAST? PETER DO YOU CONSOLIDATE YUR MEALS TO A TIME WINDOW or eat like old people do, 2 times a day (dia y noche) AND goo to sleep with a bally full of fat / blood? (Oven/) im having a hard time guessing how much grams of protein / fat for a single meal a day. Some guys says 60 gr protein? Is that correct,? Thats súper low

Passthecream said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Peter said...

To begin with I weighed everything. I climb best if I'm fasting. The wall opens at 10am, I get home two-ish and usually have breakfast before 3pm. That's two days. I found that by accident. I tried skipping breakfast on work days (9am to 2pm) and found I enjoyed work w/o breakfast. Eating by 3pm. That's two more days. Other days I eat any old time. Two or three meals a day.


DLS said...

Passthecream thanks, but lean protein + rice.... im talking about the paleomedicina protocol man, i don't really have to test that macros to know it would skyrocket my insulin levels to hell, leaving me hungry and impeding my fasting or making it at really really uncomfortable, ( headaches) i have insulin resistance, and my regular keto diet works wonders for me, i have minimum amounts of body fat, im able to eat tons of protein and fat if carbs are super low, o with some unusual carbs like dark chocolate or nuts here ant there-

im tryn this PKD laboratory nonsense to heal my busted knee and swollen calf, because i find it makes sense in some aspectas, but as it is its not designed to substain any kind of fasting, i find that fat alone doesn't satiate me long term, protein alone leaves me hungry, ( + carbs ravenous) doing paleomedicina with my usual high fat high protein approach i can fast great, but it makes me fat and gives me morning headeaches... indicating to much insulin, o to low ( dont have my test trips yet tryn this blind)

on reddit tere are a few omad guys tha have the same problem, the meal is satiating, but it dsnt work for long, knowing the amnout of protein in grams and bodyweigth ( im 62kg) i could konw if im overdoing it. thanks

DLS said...

peter i hate to wake up and not eat! ja ja is the first thing i do, breakfast is my most important meal of the day, and the olny one. eating any other time ( some times i do it, if i have to give blood, or its party time) seems unnecessary to me and goes against my cortisol, leptin, circadian rhythm and huger witch is none.

Passthecream said...

DLS --- everyone has to work out their own food demons and blisses. I have tried believing in quite a range of diets before landing where I am now. It's not lean meat either but I'm better off if I have some uncomplicated starch occasionally. I am/ was T2D and also a gout sufferer. Both hereditary but diet triggered. T2D wants few carbs but gout needs a few to help clear uric acid. High ketones inhibit uric acid transport especially if it is already faulty. This is a rock versus a hard place. My bad hip cleared up etc. I'm sure a lot of arthritises are gout related. Somehow. Protons(38) particularly led me to consider lower fat with a few carbs every so often alternating with the opposite.

I don't want to waste Peter's time, just will point out that:

A high fat diet plus eggs and cheese and dairy and fish and organ meats, leads to a chronic vitA overdose. Whereas a high fat diet plus eggs and cheese and dairy and fish and organ meats leads to a high uric acid level. A mostly sat-fatty diet with beef and intermittent carbs otoh, doesn't. In my case.

Passthecream said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob said...

Would someone please help confirm my PKD calculation here.

I have 1/4 pound (4 oz US) of ground beef, 80% lean, 20% fat.

In grams that's

4 oz * 28.3495 = 113.398 grams

113.398 * .8 = 90.7184 lean grams.

PKD requires 2 grams fat per 1 gram lean (protein) (from the chart here), so I need 181.4368 grams of fat to make this meal PKD.

I already have 22.6796 grams of fat in the meat (113.398 * .2) so I need 181.4368 - 22.6796 = 158.7572 grams of added fat.

Each tablespoon of tallow I have is 14 grams of fat, so I need to cook this meat in 158.7572 / 14 = 11.3398 tablespoons of tallow.

Am I doing this right? That seems like a hell of lot of tallow. It turns my 4 oz ground beef into almost a 2000 calorie meal (91 lean grams * 4 + 181 fat grams * 9). Plus a big slug of protein, too. Whew!

And thanks!

Peter said...

Ah, well Bob that gave me a giggle. 100g of 80% lean beef needs 20g of fat, near enough.

Try Fitday, it will do the calculations for you.


Pernickety said...

Bob, as many others have done, you've mistaken the weight of the mean for the protein content. Luckily, it's far easier to calculate than the impressive mathematics you did! I presume you live in the US as you mentioned 4 oz US ground beef? In the UK it's quite easy to do as we are typically provided the fat content in grams per 100g meat. So if I was to buy a lamb shoulder to roast, it already has 18g fat and 18g protein per 100g, making the math quite simple: 18g x 2 = 36g fat needed, but with 18g fat already = 36 - 18 = 18g fat to add.

Kajus said...

I am almost 60 years old and previously I had trouble swimming 25 meters under the water a length in the swimming pool. That was definitely my limit, now after pkd there is no problem doing it even though I had not tried in a few months.

Steve said...

It is 17% protein. Don't include the water as part of the lean weight.

Peter said...

Kajus, yes, this intrinsic to any ketosis. Even exogenous ketones will do it. I have a post here



Bob said...

Pernickey and Steve, you are correct. I didn't even think of the water content. The little block of ground beef is a frozen quarter of the one-pound package I had bought, and the label was long gone.

Thank you both for the correction.

Peter, the pleasure of making you giggle greatly exceeds my embarrassment. And I will learn to use Fitday.

zach said...

A month or two of beef and salt and water should be what every physician prescribes first. Then, slowly and singly add in other animal products and see what happens. Use plants and herbs as a little garnish or medicinal properties if desired. This would greatly help world health, therefore it will not be undertaken.

DLS said...

pkd test... absolutely abysmal horrible terrible nose acne ( similar to fun sugary cholate + pasteurized mik days - the awesome body!) using pure cow fat, instead of salter pasteurized butter, and eating liver, brain, heart,Sweetbread, faty pork,and a bit of meat instead of just meat mince , chiken breast, lean pork + regular butter, 40% cream, shreded coconut for fast sources(perfect skin) my leg / knee is a BIT better, but i think i need to find better food to pull this pdk bull, it dsnt work with the fat and meat im sourcing out. this shit is inflamatory. still able to fast, and i started to eat coconut and ice cream again (fuk this shit) going to dropp teh organs soon, have lots of that shit now...

Passthecream said...


tbh, I haven't bothered to sus out all the junk you seem to be eating there but a single 80g slice of beef liver has 21,000 iu of preformed vitamin A which is 700% of the daily rda in most civilized countries, and once that is in your liver and fatty tissues it only goes away at less than the rda rate. Which means that one slice every 7 days is more than enough and way too much when you are also eating all that other dairy food and pork. Massive acne and arthritis from all that S#Y^E are completely predictable. Other weird and painful problems will not be far behind.


M & M said...

You don't know the basics of DO:

At the beginning of Optimal Nutrition, i.e. for approximately 1 month in young people and approximately 3 months in older people, protein intake should be increased to 100 or even 130 grams per day. The same should be done for people who have long been suffering from chronic rheumatoid arthritis with weight deficiencies and large deformed joints. In general, there is also a need to increase protein intake in diseases of tissues and organs, as a rule, poorly nourished, such as skin, blood vessels, bones, cartilage, malnourished for a long time. By adjusting the type of protein consumed, i.e. its chemical composition, to the chemical composition of proteins in organs of tissues particularly damaged by the disease, the regression of the lesions can be significantly accelerated.

The general rule of Optimal Nutrition is to maintain the right balance between these ingredients. As a general rule: 1: 2.5-3.5: 0.5. This means that you should have 2.5 to 3.5 grams of fat and 0.5 grams of carbohydrates in your diet for 1 gram of protein consumed. This proportion, assuming that proteins and fats are mainly of animal origin, ensures the proper functioning of the body at the beginning of Optimal Nutrition. After the body adjusts to the new diet, the demand for protein decreases. It also decreases when the highest biological value protein is consumed. Then the ratio between protein and carbohydrates as 1: 0.5 does not apply. It can be 1: 1 or even 1: 1.5.

There may be some deviations from this principle depending on the psychophysical properties of man, environmental conditions and the diseases that man suffers from. For example, obesity should reduce the amount of fat to 1-2 grams per 1 gram of protein in the first months of the diet, as they burn their own fats intensively, as the optimal diet is the best possible slimming diet. An adult, young and healthy, very active professionally and in life, should increase the amount of fat up to 5g per 1g of protein, because he no longer builds his body, and needs a lot of energy. A child who grows and develops will need more protein than an elderly person, whose task is only to maintain the existing state, and its excess may be undesirable.

In addition, your dairy (lactose, casein) intolerance is associated with a lack of the gene, allel the T/T; C/T. :)

We, Sławianie, PoLachy, PoLacy, write 70% of it. The remaining are descendants of Asians who came to Poland after the murder of our Sławian elite by Jews after 1944 and earlier !!

DLS said...

Passthecream im usin liver like seasoning, barely just 3 teasponns of liver every other day, pork has almost no vit a, heart the same, so no. my guess is the massive amount of shitty fat im eating. yesterday i used BUTTER and my face is clear now. but ill take that info into consideration, remember beveloping acne eating beef heart every day, ( has 0.0 vit A)

Galina L. said...

With a carnivore, a problem with a digestion of meat and animal fats, which is not so rare, can become noticeable. I want to write now about a case in my FB group ketogenic diet. A 38-year-old woman with a diagnosis of multiple sclerosis received an advice from her doctor to follow a Carnivore diet, but despite the high calorie intake of about 3,000 calories, she lost enough of weight in 4 months of the diet so that her menstruation disappeared. However, her MS symptoms disappeared/ Her physician did not think about to prescribe supplements. We advised her take bentain with pepsin, that solved the problem. She gained weight and her menstrual periods returned

Passthecream said...

Pork can have vit A. Pigs are one of the few animals other than humans which store excess vitA in subcutaneous fat. All depends what they've been eating/ fed. Strangely, butter seems to help with A overload. Cream doesn't. If you live in the US and have been drinking milk or eating bread you already have a liver full of it. It's worth having none for a while just to see what happens. What's so hard about not having any? Nose going to drop off maybe?

DLS said...


pkd guru... i don't know... unlike this guy i have 0% flab since.... forever, doing sad, paleo, carnivore, keto, with the only constant of IF... maybe the doc needs to try to fast sometime instead of eating 24x7 80% fat to revert dat skiny fatness? or eating some friking coconut? just a thought, but then again this guy might have a better knee (for lack of use ,lol) pass the only reason im eating liver is koos a i have a shiton now XD, trying to recover my leg asap, ths all. so far dryfasting has been the most powerful intervention, but its getting hot so i rather drink water chill and be done with it ...

Passthecream said...

Galina, thanks for mentioning betaine, tgat sent me looking for information. It (glycine betaine) might be helpful for a friend who has 2X mthfr snp copies. She currently takes folinic and methylb12.

What do you think it accomplished for the 38 yo you mentioned?

Betsy said...

Peter, this is the truth.

"I carried on with the PKD.

So now I am stuck."

And I keep wondering why?

Passthecream said...

DLS --- à chacun son goût.

I recently discovered that liver is the only significant animal source of oxalate. That can have implications for various arthritises, gout.

Passthecream said...

DLS - get checked for pseudogout in that knee. Hits in knees, hips or wrist typically. I had something like that in a knee which was extremely painful for a short while then dicky for a long time afterwards. It cleared up with my boring simple diet, almost overnight, together with a bad hip and metacarpals. Sounds like Peter's septum cure which is what has me searching for something I may have done which relates to what he did.

Galina L. said...

Hi, Passthecream! The person in my story had to be on a carnivore diet due to her MS but couldn't digest meat and long-chained saturated fats properly. Actually it is not a rare condition, however, most people don't complain on loosing weight/ She was loosing weight quickly and was thin to begin with. HCL supplement with digestion ferments allowed her to get nutrition from the food she ate. Her menstrual periods returned. I think one needs the supplement like that in a such case https://store.juliarosscures.com/products/super-digestive-enzymes-with-hcl?variant=2563016032291

Passthecream said...

Ta Gallina

Betaine is interesting:

'TMG supplementation lowers homocysteine but also raises LDL-cholesterol.[13]'

And it is used as an anti-fouling ingredient for boats. What's not to like?

Peter said...

"also raises LDL-cholesterol"...



Galina L. said...

Passthecream , my uneducated guess is that homocysteine may be just a marker for the lack of meat in a diet or digestion problems. Or getting older. Well, it is well known that digestion system also gets older - and stomach produces less acid as a result of aging. May be we all should be more aware of the issue. About "What's not to like?". As I told, I am FB group administrator nowadays. The group discusses ketogenic diets and many people there are interested in anything which makes them thinner.Anything at all. Some complain that betaine hcl prevents their anorexia to grow.

DLS said...

No gout here. Perfect markers no inflamation. Doctors are... Wut??? AA nyway Im almost healed still eating shiton of cream,cheese, coconut, chocolate.... And nuts peanuts (Oxa n calcium alone separated from any meal) Pure fat is boring as hell

Betsy said...

Last time I posted here I mentioned that when I eat very low carb I get terrible night time leg and foot cramps. Magnesium/potassium tablet had been relieving them,but now the minerals aren't relieving them. Another strange thing is that when I eat eggs, pork, and small amount of cheese the cramps are minimal to non-existent, but when I go back to mainly beef with a bit of cheese, they return.

If anyone has insight into why beef might cause the cramps, I would appreciate the advice.

Passthecream said...

Betsy I really don't know what causes my cramps but a quick glass of water usually helps. Why???? It's real fun if you get one in your jaw or a hand siezes up.

Have you ever had migraines much or get hayfever? Is the beef fresh? I'm investigating histamine atm since it ties in with my reactivity to some foods and insects but ????? Dunno.

Betsy said...

Passthecream, I have had them in my jaw, hand, and the side of my neck, too! Scary.
Water doesn't seem to help. One night when the magnesium wasn't helping I tried some dextrose thinking that maybe my too skinny calves had run out of energy, and that did help. It only happens when I go low carb, and it's the reason that I have discontinued low carb so many times. This time I am determined to get through it. I could go back to eating pork, but after a few days the smell of it bothers me and I don't feel like eating.

A couple of days ago I started to work on the problem from the angle of it being the iron in the beef. I started taking biotin and lysine, I think they have something to do with handling iron. High dose biotin has been helpful for MS, which my symptoms seem to mimic. Besides the cramping, my whole body goes into a strange stiffening that is difficult to release. I don't know, but it seems to be helping.

I have had issues with histamines, and also glutamates. Those are two good things to take into consideration. I think B3 may be involved in both, but am not sure. Just wanted to get that into this message in case it brings anything to mind because I don't like to over post here.

I am trying to find out if it is a problem with nerves.

cavenewt said...

@ Betsy

"Well, it is well known that digestion system also gets older - and stomach produces less acid as a result of aging."

Aging as evolutionarily-normal for the organism, or "aging" as it occurs in the modern world? Normal isn't exactly normal any more, in many ways...

cavenewt said...


What if you are eating your beef but *also* pork, eggs, and cheese? You need to ascertain if it's something in the beef causing it, vs something that's missing when you don't eat pork and eggs.

Malcolm said...

Are you getting enough sodium?
Pork and cheese will often contain sodium but maybe not beef.

Betsy said...

Thank you for your reply.
That's a good point, I will try to work out a way to figure that out.

I will try adding more salt. Thank you for your input. I woke up with cramps, nausea, and a headache, and when I read your comment I took a little bit of salt and it seemed to help fairly quickly.