Wednesday, December 09, 2009

Who pays the piper part 2

Edit 2: Have the text, many thanks all, Anna got in first. Ta!

Thanks to Chris for this one.

Could I ask for the full text please, anyone with access, to see what these jokers are up to again?

Please bear in mind that Hunter is the group leader of Black, the guy who makes people prediabetic and forgets to notice or mention it, but still puts it in the results table! Is that dumb or... Discussed here.

Hunter is owned by The Sugar Bureau, if you hadn't guessed.

BTW, my aortic stiffness, a measure of cardiovascular "age" comes out consistently at 32 years of age. Not too bad for a 53 year old on a diet pushing 40% of calories from saturated fat...


EDIT: I'll try to get to recent comments from the last post tomorrow, been a bit frantic today! But productive.


webster said...

Hi Peter -
only 40% from saturated fat? What makes up the rest of your diet?

gunther gatherer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gunther gatherer said...

I second that. Aren't you and me and JK doing 80% saturated fat, as per the OD??

Eric said...

Yep, sugar bureau, openly clear, see this release:

Nigel Kinbrum said...

From High-fat low-carb diets could mean significant heart risk.

Contact: Dr. Steven Hunter
The Sugar Bureau

I am soooooo tempted.

Tal said...

80% of kcals from animal-derived fats - so a fair bit of mono in there too remember, plus whatever percentage of PUFAs that get a look in.

LeenaS said...

It's hard to get past Peter's daily 40 E% of SFA, even with a butter rich diet. There are so much Mufas (and even Pufas) in all natural animal fats, too.

So, I'm living on the JK style, with the 75-80 E% from fat which comes mainly from dairy and animal sources. However, especially the lard (lovely!) I managed to get this autumn, makes my daily SFA content drift closer to 35 or even 30% (sigh).

But I keep on trying :)

mtflight said...

you got mail (the original article).

Aaron Blaisdell said...

Could someone email the PDF of the article to me as well?

Many thanks!

(Crazy that UCLA does not have electronic access to this journal! Just goes to show how deep is the reach of California's budget woes.)

Unknown said...

Hi Peter, hi all,
I've got a question irrelevant to the post. Does anyone know what was the disease that John Yudkin died of?
(Apologies if that's a rather creepy information to collect)

blogblog said...

my university (Uni of Queensland) doesn't subscribe to Diabetes either. This is despite having the biggest medical school in Australia and the largest teaching hospital in the Southern Hemisphere.

mtflight said...

Aaron, use "inter library loan"

blogblog said...

re flo:

It seems that John Yudkin died of grief:

"In 1933 he married, only a few weeks after meeting her, Milly Himmelweit, a young woman recently arrived from Germany. She became his constant support and wise adviser. Their partnership lasted more than 60 years. Her death in March of this year was a blow from which he never recovered."

j said...

wondering if anyone has assessed the validity of this study, rats fed a diet of %60 lard showed diminished immune function compared to rats on low fed diets.

im wondering if it was a vegetable oil based lard such as crisco than a leaf lard from pork fat that might account for the suppressed function,

j said...

found the study abstract, very interesting,

j said...

found the study abstract, very interesting,

Peter said...

Sorry I'm so far behind on comments, got to sort van hire out and a million other things for the move next week. I justy get a look in occasionally. Copy paste from an off blog email, an answer to J:

"Diet is mostly D12492, 20% of calories as sucrose and maltodextrin. Makes them hungry, makes them eat the lard to excess. The beneficial PUFA cited is fish oil, not sunflower oil. This appears to blunt some of the damage to the immune system done by the hyperglycaemia due to the insulin resistance from a fat-sucrose mix. It's interesting (and good) that fish oil is good rather than bad, but beyond that it's more of the same and the press release is as honest as any other "high fat diet is bad" press release.

Glad I'm not defending this PhD. Depends on how clued up the examiners are I guess."


j said...

thanks for the response Peter,
much appreciated and really enjoy your blog.

i read through as much as i could on this study, my limited undergrad exposure to biology and all!

i couldnt find any real caveats, but it sounds as if youre suggesting that the %20 sugary portion of the diet is what led them to consume excess calories from fat,

did the study note at any point total calories consumed by each group or were they kept the same?

thanks again peter, i can see this study already making rounds by the anti-fat brigades!!

blogblog said...

I just thought I would do some background research on the leading paleo diet "experts".

Loren Cordain:
- PhD in physical education
- teaches physical education at Colorado State university
- 55 peer-reviewed publications (many in low impact journals.)
- most papers are reviews not original research.
- no PhD students produced

Credibility 7/10

Michael Eades MD
- MD University of Arkansas
- only one peer-reviewed paper in an obscure journal
- adjunct staff at Colorado State University

Credibility 5/10

I won't even go into Mary Enig who hasn't published a technical paper since she was a PhD student 20 years ago.

I accept the validity of paleo nutrition but I certainly don't consider any of these people to be world authorities on nutrition.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Are you suggesting that credibility is in proportion to the number of peer-reviewed studies published, i.e. lots of studies = lots of credibility?

See Why Most Published Research Findings Are False.

gallier2 said...

And if climategate is a lesson, then the credibility must be inverse to the number of peer reviewed papers produced.
The credibility of Prof.Lutz and probably that of Eades comes from the number of people they "saveed" with their diatery approach.

blogblog said...

The reality is that the medical profession and dietitians will only seriously consider the evidence of multiple peer-reviewed clinical trials from major institutions. So until Harvard or Stanford does a large scale clinical trial on paleo nutrition it will be ignored by medical professionals.

Even the work of Andrew Stoll MD on using omega 3 for depression has been ignored by the medical profession. This is despite a successful (but somewhat flawed) trial at Harvard. If a brilliant neuroscientist like Stoll has enormous problems getting his ideas accepted by opinion makers there is little hope for people like Cordain.

simpleton said...


Peter, you did a wonderful job explaining endogenous AGE/ALE. Thank you!I understand that you are not that concerned about exogenous AGE/ALE's.

From what I understand AGE/ALE's can me absorbed in significant amounts (especially if you have gut problems). Unfortunately I found only one study that has measured the AGE content of everyday foods, but it is kinda scary

Diabetics and high PUFA/fructose consumers aside, it looks like butter can be a major source of OD AGE/ALE's.


I wonder if the butter in that study is somehow tainted? I have hard time believing that whole milk is so low in AGE's and butter so high (per fat gram).

Anonymous said...

blogblog - you said: "... the medical profession and dietitians will only seriously consider the evidence of multiple peer-reviewed clinical trials from major institutions."

That is exactly why for my own health, I will only seriously consider the evidence from quality analysts like Peter and Eades.

See also "Harvard Medical School in Ethics Quandary" from the NYT.

Thank you Peter.

Ken said...

"my aortic stiffness, a measure of cardiovascular "age" comes out consistently at 32"

Impressive, though it might not be entirely due to diet & lifestyle, you have the kind of physique that is very common among centenarians.

Child diabetes blamed on food sweetener.

Pai said...

I've just found your blog and gone through your archives... it's been a real eye opener for me! I've been eating 'badly' for years and to find my dietary habits have actually been 'healthier' than what everyone has been telling me... just amazing.

blogblog said...


the best predictor of living to 100 is a very relaxed personality. Psychosocial stress is possibly the biggest health problem in western society.

J Intern Med. 2000 Feb;247(2):188-97.
The hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis activity as a predictor of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes and stroke.

Rosmond R, Björntorp P.

"CONCLUSIONS: These results disclose the prospect of an overriding function of a pathological HPA axis on other, established risk factors for CVD, type 2 diabetes and stroke. Its close association to HPA axis dysfunction may explain the previously reported powerful risk indication of abdominal obesity for the diseases mentioned. The HPA axis abnormality has been reported to be a characteristic consequence of frequently repeated or chronic environmental stress challenges."

blogblog said...

I read the article. It is absolute rubbish:
"Natural fructose represents 5%-10% of the weight of any fruit. Its use in processed foods stems from a discovery in 1971 that synthesised a 55% fructose and 45% glucose syrup from maize, creating an ingredient cheaper and six times sweeter than cane sugar."

- regular corn syrup contains no more fructose than regular table sugar and is no sweeter.

- pure fructose is only 1.7x as sweet as sucrose.

- corn syrup is more expensive to produce than regular sucrose.

- The USA is the only country where it widely used (due to subsidies). It was originally introduced because the Cuban trade embargo.

Peter said...

MCT and Gunther, taliessen and LeenaS are absolutely correct. The concept of animal fats being saturated is common, but lard has a large proportion of oleic acid, as does beef. Beef fat even has 3% PUFA...


Yes, that was on the original link fwded to me by Chris, lost it in the haste...

Nigel, be polite!

Alex, thanks, Aaron, I'm just catching up here, do you still need the text?

Flo, No, I've looked, I guess you have too. It's always curious know these things!

J, it's a whole PhD, you can down load the full document from the Gottenburg University web site. It's big and they change the diet quite a lot over the years of study. But sucrose does form an important component of a high fat rat diet. I would give the caveat that it is possible in rats to do the same with a little glucose too, but it is rare to omit the sucrose.


I understand Cordain and Eades are good friends and agree to differ re saturated fats. This is fine but doesn't stop Cordain coming out with some extra ordinary PC ideas. Many "paleo" people seem unhappy with his saturophobia, and many of the main stream decry his emphasis on meat. Several years ago he came out quite badly in a triangular discussion with Colpo, who has a habit of being correct. Personally the kiwis and commercial strawberries on his web site put me off.

But weighing a stack of published studies makes Ancel Keys an expert on diet and CVD!

The paleo stuff has already been done and ignored in Sweden by Lingerberg. Stanford on a paleo diet would simply feed 10kg of kiwi fruit a day and watch people become diabetic on it. They WOULD be listened to. I agree Cordain is as PC as possible to try and get his message over. It's still PC, and ignored!

Antero, not had chance to look at the studies but I've seen similar. My concept is that humans held a lump of meat over a fire as the start of cooking. You can argue from 600,000 years ago to maybe 2,000000 years ago. The AGE count will be high in char-grilled meat, I see no problem with that. Baking is easy for meat too but boiling needs pots, that means neolithic... Now feeding cats an AGE rich diet may be a different matter....

Ken, yes, but I know people who have dropped their readings on LC dieting after years of trying using "healthy" eating plus arginine supplementation (nitric oxide precursor, see Dr Davis). There is a simple machine to get this reading. I'll post on it when I can. I have used the commercial machine and a hotch potch of a doppler ultrasound, my MAC and some audio software to analyse the pulse waveform. Both methods agree. I've used it on non LC eating folks and people are often their age or older!

Pal, yes, the SAD wasn't that bad until 30 years ago and if you have been eating "old" recipes, you might have been doing well by being naughty! Just try the Optimal Icecream!


Nigel Kinbrum said...

I won't e-mail Dr Hunter as I have difficulty being polite to some people.

Ed said...


you seem to suggest that the level of personality relaxation (to attempt to use your term) is an independent variable. I suggest you read through everything on Dr Lands' EFA Education site, then read Lands and Hibbeln on homicide and seed oils. I believe your diet has a big influence on how relaxed you are.

Ed said...

Peter, I think our ancestors just threw the meat directly onto the fire. See the recent National Geographic article on one of the few remaining primitive hunter gatherer tribes, in Africa. Eades linked to it recently.

Gary J Moss said...

At least one mainstream kind of professor/M.D. seems to be getting it—at least as far as fructose is concerned.

Unknown said...

Thanks for that link. Very interesting video.

One thing that struck me, and I am not sure if my conclusion is correct, but you don't really need Fiber unless you consume Fructose.