Monday, August 11, 2008

Food: Optimal ice cream

One pint of double cream, six egg yolks, about 10 drops of vanilla and sweetener to taste.

JK uses about 60g (100g to a litre) of sucrose. This is wayyyyyy too sweet for me, 20g is usually plenty. I also like it made with honey, about 20ml of liquid honey is fine. Sweetener users can adjust stevia/saccharin etc to taste. I just use some of my carbs to sweeten it.

Blend it up in a food processor and transfer to an ice cream maker. I can manage quite a lot of this before I hit fat overload and it's always tempting to push my fat tolerance limits with it... Just in a spirit of exploration of course!



Anonymous said...

Thanks for the recipe - I'm going to have to try this out with heavy whipping cream (we don't have double cream here in the states). Any idea how that might affect the recipe? I assume just left creamy.

gunther gatherer said...


Given the other recipes you've got on the blog, I'm seeing a very high average calorie intake that simply doesn't jive with your low weight (unless you're running laps without telling us or perhaps you're 6 foot 7 and can naturally burn it all off).

I'm confused at how you're keeping your bodyweight and BMI so low on the foods you list. I had to lower my fat intake from 200-250 per day to about 130 to see weight loss. But I'll add I didn't gain an ounce even while eating to the higher daily fat levels. I'm planning on bumping fat up to around 200 again once I'm at goal weight. Everything fine, but I'm confused with the mechanism...

You said somewhere else on the blog that you actually reached your goal weight on Atkins, but then switched to OD for health reasons. Is it that OD doesn't actually bring weight loss, but instead just keeps your weight stable?

So from my reading, high fat can stall weight loss, but at the same time create a ceiling for weight gain?

Anonymous said...

We do have double cream in the states...and is just delicious...that brand has double cream and clotted cream and salted butter....several retailers in my neighborhood (North East US)have them and they are just delicious....actually hard not to eat it all.
The company that produces it is called "The Devon Cream Company" and is all grass fed (if you care for that).
Here is a link to see how it looks:
I have not had double cream nor heavy whipping cream of any kind lately because along with th cheese I seem toreact to it, but the butter is definitely one of my main sources of daily energy.

Peter said...

Hi b,

I don't think the change of cream will make a huge difference except texture and once it's frozen, it's frozen... Just don't miss out on the extra sat fat!

Gunther, You've got a point there. I roughed out what else I'd eaten that day and not only had I had a main meal, usually about 1000kcal, but I'd had 1.5 pots of fermented cream at 1000kcal/pot and at least 3 small bars of chocolate and we had parsnip chips with the salsa to mop up the fat which ran out of the sauce. Plus the left over ice cream and choc cream sauce. I was probably well over 3000kcal, maybe over 3500kcal and happened to loose about 400g bodyweight from the previous day's weight... Not sure quite how this works. Squiggs and uncoupling proteins I guess.

It was a Sunday and though we were very active with Squiggs (now probably 13-14kg) and gardening I certainly wasn't lifting weights all day... I'm currently fluctuating between 64.2 and 64.8kg and my scales guestimated me at 11% fat in lower body today. Fine by me even if JK would consider me emaciated!

As far as I can see I could do on OD what I did on Atkins, though when I get round to the post on how I started LC eating it will be obvious that I was exercising pretty hard when I dropped below 60kg.

Peter said...

Hi Misty,

The cream looks excellent. I'm grateful that my problems with cream are minor and (as far as I can tell) merely cosmetic...


gunther gatherer said...


You are eating more than twice as many kcal per day as fat people trying to lose weight by cutting calories. This explains why you're not hungry ever! But the only way I've achieved success in fat loss is with some (albeit mild) hunger...

As a result of cutting fat down, I'm now eating about 1600 kcal per day. Of course I'm losing weight, but my life isn't half as fun as yours... And no amount of running around with your child accounts for burning off 3500 kcal a day. That daily calorie balance is what many 200lb muscle-bound bodybuilders consume, while spending 4 hours a day at the gym.

It just doesn't add up.

Were you ever hungry on your way to reaching your goal weight? Would you say success with OD has something to do with ratios of protein/carbs/fat as opposed to actual amounts of each?

gunther gatherer said...

Just to add to the above, I think it would really be useful to know what you ate while reaching your goal weight in order to compare it to what you eat now.

Because I highly doubt you ate 3500 kcal while reaching 60kg. You must have eaten a fair amount less.

OD seems to promote balance and maintenance of bodily processes, but even JK himself tells you to cut fat (and therefore calories) to reach ideal weight.

Peter said...


Again, these are quite difficult questions to answer. For ages I've never really counted calories or anything much else. I know half a pound of meat and some eggs pretty well does my protein. A window dressing of carbs gets me to 50g/d. Then fat... It was your comment and a back of the mind niggle about that extra half pot of cream that made me rough out the total calorie count for the day. Today I've gotten through two pots of cream as well as the 1/3 portion of casserole and chocolate. Done some building work as I'm vet working a little less. Be interesting to see if I've gained.

Until this episode I just used to look at my weight and back off a little on the cream or have an extra LC day if I'm >65kg. Recently the problem has been weights in the 63kg range. Because I'd not really looked at my calorie intake I've not really though much about it. The "problem" with the cream (1.5-2 pots a day, I expect to have 1 pot) is not that I'm hungry. I just LIKE it. I suspect I'm opioid driven from the casein. Shrug. May as well enjoy my calories!

But no, during precipitous weight loss with Atkins, cycling and kayaking I was never hungry. This was mild blowing as I ate continuously when on carbs, because I was hungry, often ravenous. And yes, I'd bet I was on well under 3500ckal/d, probably more like 2000-2500kcal/day. I'll post some kayaking pics when I do the beginings post. You can see where the spare calories went!


Anonymous said...

"I ate continuously when on carbs, because I was hungry, often ravenous."

I think fiber has the same effects. When I gave up the 85% chocolate as an experiment, my appetite went way down. Scented coconut oil also made me hungry sometimes, but not the 76 degree (naturally refined) type Ray Peat suggested. I'm saving a lot of money, too, since Ray's coconut oil costs less than $2 a pound in bulk, as opposed to $10-16 a pound for an overpriced health store rip-off. No interest in chocolate any more.

I think the chocolate might be one reason you said your joints lock up if you don't take 5g of fish oil a day. Have you tried eliminating ALL fiber, even potatoes, fruit, etc.? Chocolate has a fairly high omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, like 32:1. Dairy and red meat are usually lower than that, you should try giving it up. The fat and/or the fiber might be a problem. In my experience, fiber's bad news, period. I've experimented recently with limeade and lemonade run though a tea strainer. Neither of those caused a drop in energy or increase in hunger, but eating 85% chocolate did. Get rid of fiber and PUFAs and good things happen.

mtflight said...

Hi Peter,

I'm confused about stevia. I've read two different things on it--one that it increases insulin production. The other that it increases insulin sensitivity. I'm not sure who to believe--in the meantime I'm avoiding it due to the former possibility.

I felt "odd" when I had the cheesecake sweetened with honey--and I couldn't really sleep deeply. A Chinese buffet syndrome of sorts. Maybe I am more sensitive to glucose/fructose than most?

I can eat a large low carb meal, no problem. Then accidentally I take a sip of a regular HFCS soda (4oz or so), and I feel like I ate a ton of bricks.

Any speculation on what could be going on?

Cheers--and keep up the good blog!!


Anonymous said...

gunther gatherer,

I'm not sure where you're going with all these questions about if high fat is really worthwhile. I eat over 250 grams of fat every day and I feel and look the best I ever have. I've been on the diet now for around 2 months.

gunther gatherer said...


From your story, it's becoming clear that there is a "healing" or adaptation period where OD actually changes some bodily processes or corrects them.

During this period, quantities, ratios and calories have to be monitored.

You say you've been eating this way for 5 years, so would it be fair to say that adherence to OD for so long has "done" something to your body, whereby something is reset in your metabolism so that bodyfat accumulation is suppressed?

3500kcal a day at 63kg? There is something to this that we are missing...

Peter said...

Hi Gunther, the 63.2kg recently was when I'd just re started full time work and there wasn't a lot of time for anything, let alone eating, between consults. No idea what my calorie intake was in those days. If it helps, I'm back up from 64.6 to 65.0 from yesterday to today, probably around 3300kcal. Will probably do about 2500kcal today and see what I weigh tomorrow! I'm not sure daily checking like this means very much. My weight over the last few years has been between 64 and 65 kg with very few points outside this range. It's a problem having not counted calories. But the cream is always 1000kcal, the eggs 300-400kcal and a main meal must be routinely 1000kcal.... I do remember back when I posted on the AHOA discussion board I was more like 2000kcal, but then I discovered fermented cream which is where an awful lot of my calories come from today. This probably jumped me from 62ish to 64ish kgs, which was fine by me.

Ice cream splurges are occasional, not daily!


Peter said...


I used stevia for a while but dropped it because I really didn't mind using a few carbs to sweeten my drinks. I think the insulin effects are probably at dosages you wouldn't want to consume in the real world and I always thought of it as a freebie, insulin wise.


gunther gatherer said...


I can understand that a busy lifestyle can get in the way with eating and temporarily shave off a pound or two here and there, but with your pints of cream, the recipes you've given (even at 1/3 of the portion) and 6 egg yolks fried in butter a day, you are ingesting an average 350 grams of fat per day. Assuming your ideal weight is/was 65 kilos, you are well above the upper limit JK recommends.

As you say above, the only thing you are really keeping track of is carbs and protein. This implies that cutting carbs and protein brought your weight down, not cutting fat. Fat is having no impact on your weight at all.

Why then does JK recommend cutting fat to 1-2 grams per kilo ideal bodyweight in order to stimulate weight loss, and then recommend raising this to 2.5-3.5 once ideal weight is reached?

If you're now eating around 350 g fat a day at 64kg, does this mean if you cut fat back to normal OD ratios your weight will drop to below 60kg???

Tinkering with carbs and protein manipulate weight, but fat is a bodyweight stabiliser perhaps?

Anonymous said...

Gunther, have you read the pages on MagicBus where several people tried to gain weight on zero-carb diet by overeating? They failed. The weight did not change by even one pound in the whole month, despite overeating by at least 1500-2000 Calories/day. To make a long story short, you can not gain weight on a zero-carb diet or an extremely high-fat & low-carb diet. You might have to limit total calories to lose weight, but not to simply maintain at a normal weight.

Here are the threads...

gunther gatherer said...

Bruce, thanks for that link. Once you've weeded through the overuse of smiley icons, you realize that this guy Jeff is basically rediscovering what JK prescribes. Peter, I urge you to read it too if you're interested in knowing why you're not gaining weight on so many fat grams above maintenance. It seems you can't gain weight on fat alone.

So, to recap...

For weight loss: control all calories

For weight maintenace: just control carb and protein calories

This explains why JK says to cut fat for weight loss, simply because it cuts a hefty amount of daily calories. I don't think he cares whether those calories are fat, protein or carbs. The point is to get to ideal weight.

Cannot wait to get to regular OD for maintenance. It's going to feel like a feast after 130g fat a day!

Peter said...


Only one pot of cream yesterday. Down from 65 to 64.4kg. Worked moderately hard ripping the floor up.


PS my wife suggest not everyone's metabolism is the same. You're obviously going to give it a go to find out... Enjoy!

gunther gatherer said...

Peter, I think it would be a great experiment to push your fat intake out to say 500g for a week and see if you gain weight or not.

Judging from what I'm seeing, I don't think you will!

The studies show that overweight people's problem isn't losing weight, it's staying at their ideal weight forever. JK solves that problem, among other health issues, using fat.

Tell you what: once I get to 65kg, I'd be willing to experiment with you to see if we gain weight back by upping only fat. An N-equals-1 test, if you will. See you there!

Manda said...


you said, "I eat over 250 grams of fat every day and I feel and look the best I ever have."

would you mind sharing what that looks like in your diet? how do you get 250 grams of fat in one day? i have trouble getting any where near that and it would help me to see your example.

thank you. amanda

Anonymous said...

Gunther, Jeff didn't limit protein. He ate 2-3 times as much protein as JK suggests probably. The zero-carb runner Charles does not believe you should eat one diet for weight loss and another for weight maintenance. He thinks diet based on that theory is flawed. He eats zero carb and no fiber, he eats when he's hungry and always eats his fill. I don't think you should have one diet for weight loss and another for maintenance. I think you should keep diet constant and if weight doesn't normalize, it is a flawed diet by definition.

arnoud said...

No weight gain with high levels of fat intake?
The pre-condition for this to occur is that serum glucose levels must be held below 87 mg/dl.

At such low levels of serum plucose, the Pancreas produces no insulin.
If there is no insulin, the body's fat cells cannot absorb fat, they can only release fat. Therefore, if fat is abundant from dietary sources, in the absence of insulin, the body has no mechanism to store the fat.

Of course, the only way to keep serum glucose below 87 mg/dl is by severely limiting carbohydrates. I am not sure how protein intake affects serum glucose and insulin production, but the key issue is carbohydrate intake.

wattlebird said...

This high fat / low carb fandangle has stolen from me, migraines, asthma, sundry allergies, and joint pain in a dicky knee. (Oh yes, I am as skinny as a rake and I shovel in the food as well).
But,it seems IT giveth in the form of burning urination (varies in strength) as well.
Urine been tested several times: no infection. So to prostate, bladder, hangy bits, and various blood tests reveal nothing.
Have tried fiddling (pardon the expression) with food quantities, varieties, to no great benefit.
Any - ahem - takers?

emil henry said...

I did a modification. Just soak gelatin plates in water, then take the ice cream mixture, heat, and add the gelatin. I freeze it in the fridge. The texture is rich and satisfying. If you use lots of gelatin, it's like pudding.

I also add some good quality Dutch cocoa. The vanilla tends to bring out the best of the cocoa, and vice versa.

Peter said...

Hi info,

Back when I started LC the mild skin problems I had on my hands got worse! Switching from Atkins to the OD made no difference. Dropping the gluten did. The sore patches were pretty consistent in their locations. Now imagine my sore patches had chosen my urethra rather than my hands and stayed there consistently... Sterile cystitis, usually called interstitial cystitis (IC), is a big mystery. The two snippets I've found that make me think it's gluten related is that people with IC tend to eat "particularly healthy diets", which translates as "lots of wholemeal bread" in one abstract and the other is that it's associated with Sorgen's syndrome (dry eyes, dry mouth) which is almost certainly gluten triggered.

Interestingly IC is VERY common in cats. Peter Markwell published this when he worked for Pedigree. The were comparing Pedigree's own dry food with their own tinned food. At the time I had the book with the ingredients (they've changed since).

Tinned food: Water, meat, meat derivatives, acidity regulator, vits/mims.
The dry food: Meat, wheat, meat derivatives, acidity regulator, vits.mins.

Pete M's conclusion: It's the water that makes the difference! I beg to differ.


wattlebird said...

gluten, you may be on to somthing here. All my life I have been blessed with crusty, flaky schtuff that appears on cranium. Waxes and wanes, but mainly the former. Despite going LC, sourdough bread has remained a consistent carb source.
Time for concerted bread and related tasties,tossing.
thanks for your input, appreciated!

Ed said...

Anyone try this recipe using yogurt? I'm about to try it using Fage whole milk greek style yogurt. 2 cups yogurt, 6 egg yolks, 20 grams of honey, 10 drops vanilla like Peter says. I imagine it will be much heavier than if it were made with cream. I may add just a couple of grams of inulin to it as well.

Anonymous said...

I love this recipe so much. It's my favorite way to get my fat grams up to Optimal levels; I just don't enjoy drinking cream as much.

Since I'm in the US, I just use heavy cream. But if I ever spot double cream, I'm ON IT.